SA Friday Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 We Aussies have the same issues - jobs, school, etc. Maybe people just don't put enough value on the Nationals there. Dude, are you serious? You just took a thread about how many of us (me included) are not pleased that they didn't award recognition to Nemo's son and twisted it into some national pride thing... Quit it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve J Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 That blows all around - the timing after school starts and the cheaping out on the awards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 The awards are the same ones they've used for as long as I've been shooting Nationals. They're made by Pro-Tech (Manny Bragg). They're also the same awards used at many Area and Sectional matches. The National match runs at a deficit. USPSA does not make money on it. So for the folks that go, do you want a $350.00 match and nicer trophies or the current price and the same trophies we've used for years. There are a couple reasons I see for Australia having higher category entries than the US. One is the timing with the school year. It's difficult to schedule a National event. The host club schedule has to have the time slot available for one. But more important is weather. July and August suck in Vegas. And most kids are still in school through at least half of June. For most folks Nationals is the capper to the season. Doing it in June just seems weird. I'm guessing the biggest difference between the Nationals here and in other country is the number of other large matches we have here. While the Darwin match was likely their biggest, we have lots of big, fun, awesome matches around the country. So many that many end up on the same weekend because there just aren't enough weeks in the year. How many Area matches, Sectional matches, or other matches like the double tap had more than 200 people this year. With that much to choose from it makes it hard for Nationals to stand out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgkeller Posted September 17, 2009 Author Share Posted September 17, 2009 Five competitor rule should be changed to three Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nemo Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 Five competitor rule should be changed to three An excerpt of what I wrote to my AD: It's not his (my son's) fault there were only four in his catergory.Maybe we should look into that (category recognition and award distribution) rule. I'm not for giving a trophy to everybody, awards have to be earned/won. If we have a category that needs the positive reinforcement is our juniors. At National Championship level, if there are 2, one is going to win and should be rewarded. What do you think? My Idea: 2 to 4 shooters in a category: Award 1st place 5 to 9 shooters in a category: Award 1st, 2nd, 3rd 10+ shooters in a category: Award up to 5th (at organizers discretion) The breakdown could also be: 2 to 5: 1st 6 to 10: 1st, 2nd and 3rd 11+: Up to 5th I think I like that one better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shootingchef Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 with so many trophies going to such a small class, its does become a cost issue, some trophies cost 20.00 or more each, with a group that pays 1/2 entry or free, your cost can skyrocket. Since you would want to do the same for all classes, that makes it cost prohibited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgunz11 Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 I think the winner of any category should get recognized. Is it that difficult to have a plaque made to represent the winner of each division? My wife won Open D Class at a Level III match this year, got nothing. Women are as much a special category as juniors in my mind, if mom doesn't like the way things go then she's not going to be real happy about keeping her child out of school and other activities. Chuck, as for Nationals being on a limited budget, I'd have to question where some of the money goes and priorities. How much is an entry fee to Nationals? How much do we have to pay for the range? How much does a plaque cost for high junior, high lady, high senior, high super senior, high LEO, and high military? Where does all the money go from the entry fees? Since our rule book requires a level of participation, would USPSA still hand out special category awards if they were donated? I think high spot in any of the special categories should get recognized at Nationals and if USPSA needs help in doing that then I'll shoulder that burden myself and make sure the awards are there, if they would be willing to present them in their specific categories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nemo Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 with so many trophies going to such a small class, its does become a cost issue, some trophies cost 20.00 or more each, with a group that pays 1/2 entry or free, your cost can skyrocket. Since you would want to do the same for all classes, that makes it cost prohibited. Chef, I'm not referring to classes (GM, M, A, B, C, D), I'm talking about categories. Those groups that are the "minorities": Ladies, Junior, Senior, Super Senior, LE and Military. As the "minorities" they will never see the same numbers as the other non-categorized shooters. Of those the only ones that pay a reduced Nationals fee are the juniors. Let's look at juniors participation at this past OP nats: - Four juniors paid $125 to shoot production nationals = $500 - Ten (10) juniors paid $125 to shoot open nats = $1250 - Cost per plaque (number you used) = $20 Now, if the open kids were awarded to 3rd place that ate $60 dollars out of the $1750 paid by juniors registrations. Balance $1690 One more plaque paid out of that juniors budget would've cost another $20. Balance $1670 PLEASE... My interest is clear because this time it was my son who didn't get a trophy. <PARENTHESIS> Francisco wants me to make clear here that he doesn't care. He's not whinning because he didn't get a plaque. He's excited he got to go and had a great time. </> But because it hit me this time is that I noticed, and I believe it needs fixing. If it's such a big deal cost-wise or because the appendix would need to be amended, then I KNOW there are sponsors that wouldn't mind donating the plaques for the categories. We talk so much about how juniors are the future and how important they are, and we even have a junior coordinator, but then we turn around and schedule nationals in the beginning of the school year and do not recognize the category because it didn't get enough participation. I can schedule my vacations, as most of us can, but most juniors are subject to school schedule. You ask me, ALL the four PD juniors and the 10 open should've received something just for the sacrifice they will be doing this week and next catching up with school work. I'm 10-7 out of this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lneel Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 (edited) Chuck, as for Nationals being on a limited budget, I'd have to question where some of the money goes and priorities. How much is an entry fee to Nationals? How much do we have to pay for the range? How much does a plaque cost for high junior, high lady, high senior, high super senior, high LEO, and high military? Where does all the money go from the entry fees? Yeah, if this match operates in the red, I would be wondering where all the $$$k goes. There were 794 shooters, even with 20% shooting free and 3 RO's per squad with 7 nights in the match hotel I could not figure how they could lose money. I am completely aware of the other associated costs of big matches and understand it is not a money making venture but the difference between a $8 trophy and something worthy of a National title is not a major factor. Also, if I can put on a match with 250 shooters and provide for nicer trophies ( I certainly hope they are preceived as nice as Chef put in alot of time on them) with the scale of the USPSA Nationals I would have thought they could have as well. <>Same point as Nemo here, Nick is not whining about it. I just wish it were more than it was<>. I have won 2 trophies from Nationals of another pistol shooting sport and they are of a quality I thought was appropriate and the match fee certainly was not $275.00. I also didn't spend $182 on shirts/hats at the other Nationals event.....I am sure USPSA made a bit off that as well. Edited September 18, 2009 by lneel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 Off the top of my head. And this is certainly not an accounting just educated guesses from past experience. Biggest costs are range rental which I'm guessing would be around 10,000. RO expenses including travel, lodging and per diem for food. Rental of the hotel meeting rooms for awards, registration, and the membership meeting. Tent rentals for the vendor area, rental vehicles like the vans used for back and for around the range. This includes golf carts and the vans for transport between stages. Targets, pasters, new walls built by USPSA, possibly the shade structures, five pallets of bottled water, scoresheets, match booklets, match tshirts, a little bit to flesh out the prize table, oh yeah and plaques for awards. Like I said, I'm sure this is not anywhere inclusive just off the top of my head. Speaking as someone who has had a hand in the production of Area matches and National matches they are not the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgunz11 Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 That's certainly a healthy list of expenses. Like I said, I'd be willing to purchase plaques for next years special category winners, and I'm not interested in no 2 bit plaque either (not that anyone else has), they'll be over the top! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kend Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 If they're paying for all of this, and then some, it looks like they need to spend a little more time rounding up donations for some of this stuff. We have sponsors for pretty much everything, why not have a "Water Sponsor"? Or two, if the expense is that great? Get the local dealership to donate the use of a van or two in exchange for some advertising? I've been the MD for several state championships in two different disciplines (neither were USPSA) and the only thing we paid for was the trophies, the club made a nice profit on these matches. The match motel donated the banquet room in exchange for us selling a lot of rooms, that's not a hard sell, you just have to get after it. If I'm not mistaken the targets and pasters are donated, no expense there. There is so much of this stuff that can be taken care of the match should be able to reduce the entry fee and still upgrade the awards. My opinion is that, regardless of how many Juniors are competing, the winner should get an award for that. While I agree that not all of the Juniors should get an award for their placement I would like to see the rest of them get a plaque or something for their accomplishment of just getting there, that's a lot of work and not everybody can do it. In Francisco's case, he has worked his butt off to help pay his way by starting a profitable business that has a lot of potential. I'm sure others have put in as much work to go as well, then they have school work to get caught up on. We have the Junior programs and camps and are always being asked to support them which most of us do without hesitation, let's recognize them for what they put into it and not just give it lip service. Off the top of my head. And this is certainly not an accounting just educated guesses from past experience. Biggest costs are range rental which I'm guessing would be around 10,000. RO expenses including travel, lodging and per diem for food. Rental of the hotel meeting rooms for awards, registration, and the membership meeting. Tent rentals for the vendor area, rental vehicles like the vans used for back and for around the range. This includes golf carts and the vans for transport between stages. Targets, pasters, new walls built by USPSA, possibly the shade structures, five pallets of bottled water, scoresheets, match booklets, match tshirts, a little bit to flesh out the prize table, oh yeah and plaques for awards. Like I said, I'm sure this is not anywhere inclusive just off the top of my head. Speaking as someone who has had a hand in the production of Area matches and National matches they are not the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nemo Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 Maybe not an award (because it wasn't awarded to him), but a very nice memento of his first nationals and his accomplishment. Thank you very much, Manny Bragg! USPSA, please... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgunz11 Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 That's pretty awesome right there! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasmap Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 That's fantastic Nemo. He earned it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boz1911 Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 Maybe not an award (because it wasn't awarded to him), but a very nice memento of his first nationals and his accomplishment. Thank you very much, Manny Bragg! USPSA, please... Class all around, gotta love it!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joecichlid Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Manny is one class act guy in my book. In the few times I had a chance to meet him he always came across as one of the good ones. Joe W. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aircooled6racer Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 Hello: Manny is a great guy but don't you think that USPSA should have awarded this through there junior program not a private individual with a heart of gold? Thanks, Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 I think that if USPSA wants to grow the sport then it needs to get serious about it, we need to expand interest in our sport to a wider cross section of people. This may mean making some unpleasant choices, one of them is the timing of Nationals. Typically it is held in September, the weather is cooler and hotels may be cheaper because it is out of the regular vacation season. If we want to grow the participation of Junior shooters at Nationals then we must move the dates so that they don't have to miss school. Having the Nationals during school-term not only makes it harder to the younger shooters but also prevents participation by anyone in the education arena as they are also at school. I have said this so many times but we (not just USPSA but we as an association of individuals) do not sell Nationals the way we should. Put it on during the summer. Make it a single combined match. A single 4-5 day match. 20-25 stages. Get the big gun companies involved with demo's etc., like a mini-gun show. Get some spectators in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
99gski Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 Just my $.02... I think its important to note that when the rule was written, we didn't have so many different divisions. When I started shooting making the Top 8 women was a major feat. Looking at the talent in the Top 8 in Open this year, the field was just as deep as it has always been. Take into account that there was heat in Production as well - that shows growth. Same goes for the second of the Back to Back Nationals. In Limited-10 this year, there were quite a few big names in L-10, but only High Woman was recognized. I completely understand the issue of cost and the challenges USPSA faces. The staff has my utmost respect for all they do. I do think though that just like we have evolved by growing the divisions, so should our trophy distribution evolve for special categories. Special categories may not mean much to those not in them, but are very helpful in marketing the sport to new shooters and to manufacturers to continue their support. There are big names in the industry that back special categories for a variety of reasons. Those reasons have all been mentioned here and in other threads. I like a previous suggestion with some changes... 2 to 4 shooters in a category: Award 1st place - Trophy/Plaque or Gold Medal 5 to 9 shooters in a category: Award 1st, 2nd, 3rd - Silver and Bronze Medals 10 - 19 shooters in a category: Award up to 5th - Pewter Medal with placing 20+ shooters in a category: Award to 8th - Pewter Medal with placing Medals - when ordered in bulk - are very economical. Engraving is usually not much more. Medals don't have to be high value medal, but can be less expensive with the appropriate coloring. Medals are also something the rest of the world understands and makes our sport easier to market to the masses. Another item to keep in mind. We've had sell out nationals for several years now. That means those that want to go, have to earn/fight for only so many available slots. The fewer number of juniors could account for the fact that they could not get a slot. Just because there was a decline in the number of juniors doesn't mean that the winner's victory should go unacknowledged. Manny - well, he's just plain awesome!!! Nemo - please give my congrats as well. Julie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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