2009 Open/Production Nationals Popper Issues

[Jadeslade]

Not trying to be an advocate for the ROs here, or for the shooter, just trying to be an impartial observer based on the rules. Unfortunately, once the competitor made the choice to shoot down the popper then, even if there was something wrong with it, under the current rules (C.1.6) this is how it had to play out. Don't shoot the messenger, but if I had been the CRO, or on the arb committee, I would have no choice but to rule exactly the same way they did. That's how the current rule book reads. It's absolutely clear. If they had decided to go off on the page on this ruling, there would be other competitors who would have a legitimate bone to pick with them—and probably would have been quick to do so.

Whether, ultimately, the whole incident was fair or not, or whether that rule should be changed, is another question and worthy of debate.

The second hardest thing about being an RO is knowing the all the rules, the hardest thing is applying them consistently and properly in the midst of all the gray areas that present themselves in a match.

We're shooters too. And I approach every match with the understanding that, for every competitor, U to GM, whether local or Level III, this is an important match that deserves my best efforts in being impartial and knowledgeable in applying the rules so they have as level a playing field as possible.

Curtis

Amen and +1,000,000 There is not a common sense clause in the rule book and honestly we have all seen some people RO'ing that we think lacks common sense. Randi is experienced enough to know that as soon as you call 2 good hits in the callibration zone you have three choices to make right then and there. Don't make your choice and then want a do over because you don't like the out come. We all learn from every match we shoot. I have learned the death by popper rule by experience. It has gone both ways for me in the past and the only person I can fault for it is me. Could the rule use some tweaking? I'm not so sure. I think the calibration PF dropping to 115 to 125 takes care of most issues. I also don't by the we have to make it identical for everyone arguement either. We don't shoot in a vacuum, so that will never be possible. You can not account for wind, amount of rain, atmospheric changes, etc. We have to keep things as fair as we can and play by the written rules we have. Don't bend a rule to fit one issue, because you will create problems somewhere down the line.

I am not sure + 1,000, 000 is allowed. +1 = 1man? I don't think it's a common sense issue. I think it is an interpretation issue. I think it is a change the rule issue. The people who have used the common sense phrase were using it in a true sense of the word-anyone with common sense could see the popper was f***** up. With no apparent way to fix the problem. I don't think anyone is talking about bending the rules. Changing them, to make them better. Like we don't use sundials anymore to time shooters. DVC

Typo edit

Edited September 16, 2009 by Jadeslade

[Fireant]

It was functional enough to fall, once it was driven down it's all over.

In that case, I really don't see why they needed to fix it for the next shooter. If nothing is broken, nothing needs to be fixed, tape up the targets and run the next shooter.

The first time this rule went against me, I felt the same way and my blood was boiling. I am now embarassed at the way I reacted. Looking back on it, I call fro a calibration, lost the calibration test and the MD made an adjustment to the popper. I now realize it was to save him another trip back to that stage for another shooter in the next squad. Nothing in the rules prevents the MD from making repairs before the next shooter. Had the shooter in question just finished and called for a calibration this discussion would not even be here. I'm sure that a popper with 8 rounds to fall would have not fallen with 1 calibration shot, but we will never know the answer to that. The last local match I shot had a Texas star that was in bad shape. Half the squad shot it with no problems, then all 5 plates fell with one hit. We had to stop and fix the equipment. It was broken for everyone, but finally gave the ship for one guy. It was REF for that shooter, not the 5 before him that shot with it broken. The same is true here. Was it broken? Yes. Was it broken to the point it would not fall? apparently not. The rules allow an RO to stop a shooter for safety and REF. Until a calibration shot happens I don't know if it is REF or not. It sure is not a safety infraction.

Edited September 16, 2009 by Fireant

[zhunter]

Thanks for the clarification Billy!!!

It seems the shooter got screwed.

[CenTX]

This is a simple "use your commone sense" situation for a RO. In cases where one of the RO's see where a shooter has hit a popper in the circle multiple times, they should immediately stop the shooter.....especially on an activating piece of steel. There is obviously range equipment failure or something seriously wrong with the stage/equipment.

That is the FAIR thing to do for the shooter. I know when I see three hits inside the circle, it is range equipment failure immediately.

Now the return argument would be - maybe the shooter's ammo wasn't meeting minimum power factor. Well, that will be determined at the chrono. If they are shooting sub-minor, they will not be scored within the match and thus the re-shoot would not have been 'unfair' for the remainder of the shooters.

This situation and SO many of the rules in the rulebook should be looked at with - WHAT is the rule trying to say. The reason that level of knowledge is needed is so that when that one weird situation erupts, the RO can make a FAIR ruling. The rules concerning popper and their calibration is really geared around ONE hit on the popper.....if it takes more than one acceptable hit, it is range equipment failure by definition.

In this particular case, when a popper had to be hit so many times within the circle, the RO should have stopped the shooter.....it would been the FAIR thing to do for all.

In this particular case, with that many hits, in this specific case maybe that would be fair. However, writing that rule would have all sorts of issues.

If the popper falls on the second hit is it REF, or is it the 3rd , 5th, 8th? The time is worse on the reshoot, is that fair?

Do you have to take the reshoot?

A shooter is having a bad run and puts a second hit on the steel after it starts falling in order to get a reshoot, what then?

[Jaxshooter]

I have to agree with Fireant. There is a rule in the book that covers this specific problem. (whether the rule is good or bad is irrelevant) The shooter knows the rules or should and has to make a decision immediately as to what to do, hammer it down or leave it and request calibration. This is true from the local level to the Nationals.

[larry cazes]

Much has been written here. Bottom line is that the shooter made the decision to put multiple shots on the popper and the rules are explicit about what happens if it doesn't fall. Unfortunate, yes. Poor stage design, maybe, but I tend to like stages that have a high risk vs. reward factor and allow the shooter to make these kinds of choices. I would consider this a great nationals stage that places a lot of emphasis on strategy. I think the current set of rules is sufficient and would NOT vote for a rule change if given the option to. I have made the same call and handled the situation just as this RO did and will not do differently next time it comes up.

[rgkeller]

RO had no choice

Arb Committee did

[wide45]

RO had no choice

Arb Committee did

Nope

11.1.9 Arbitration Committee’s Duty – The Arbitration Committee is bound to

observe and apply the current USPSA Rules and to deliver a decision

consistent with those rules. Where rules require interpretation or where

an incident is not specifically covered by the rules, the Arbitration

Committee will use their best judgment in the spirit of the rules.

[Jadeslade]

Much has been written here. Bottom line is that the shooter made the decision to put multiple shots on the popper and the rules are explicit about what happens if it doesn't fall. Unfortunate, yes. Poor stage design, maybe, but I tend to like stages that have a high risk vs. reward factor and allow the shooter to make these kinds of choices. I would consider this a great nationals stage that places a lot of emphasis on strategy. I think the current set of rules is sufficient and would NOT vote for a rule change if given the option to. I have made the same call and handled the situation just as this RO did and will not do differently next time it comes up.

What is your opposition to a rule change other than you don't want to do it? I think the current rules are not sufficient. Poppers are a repetitively repeating problem. Going on years. Risk for reward factor is choosing 2 really long shots instead of running up the course to shoot them close up. Or going to slide lock on the last array. It shouldn't be the random chance of a malfunctioning popper. DVC

[Jadeslade]

Where rules require interpretation or where

an incident is not specifically covered by the rules, the Arbitration

Committee will use their best judgment in the spirit of the rules.

Nope? If all you need is automation, we don't need RO's, CRO'S, or MDs. A computer will do just fine. No judgment needed, just the ability to read black and white. Is that how you see a sporting event run? There are obvious differences of interpretation going on here, but I haven't seen one argument as to why the rules could not be amended to make a situation rectifiable. Other than- "I don't want to". DVC

[XRe]

repetitively repeating

And redundant....

[Jadeslade]

Abundantly redundant.

[AlamoShooter]

Abundantly redundant.

I looked for the forth time

[SA Friday]

I'm in the Billy camp on this one. If you go to pedal your bike and subsequently have to spend 30 minutes to get it to work right, that sh!* was broke.

I never want to win or lose based on these circumstances, ever. Do you?

[wide45]

The calibration rules could be among those that have changed the most over the years. It's taken a lot of evolution to get where we are. Before demanding changing what we have, you need to understand the rules as they are, and why we made them that way. Making blind changes, nearly always bites us in the end.

[lynn jones]

look give her 4 seconds and she is still behind julie. she gains only a few spots is the overall. let's say good night on this discussion. max had a bad stage too.

lynn

[Jadeslade]

The calibration rules could be among those that have changed the most over the years. It's taken a lot of evolution to get where we are. Before demanding changing what we have, you need to understand the rules as they are, and why we made them that way. Making blind changes, nearly always bites us in the end.

The rules aren't that hard to understand, way easier than cricket. I have asked several posters to explain why "you" made them that way. I haven't seen anyone demand anything. I didn't know they were your rules, I thought they were our rules. DVC

[Ben Stoeger]

Just to stir the pot up a little bit… One shooter on my squad got a reshoot (I don’t remember who, and I don’t remember what stage) after he hit a popper twice and then left it standing. The Range Master didn’t fire a shot at it to calibrate it. They just determined that the popper was faulty and awarded a reshoot.

[JThompson]

look give her 4 seconds and she is still behind julie. she gains only a few spots is the overall. let's say good night on this discussion. max had a bad stage too.

lynn

Okay, so after Max's bad stage he hit's this problem.... He now loses the match. This isn't just about this one case. It's an ongoing issue in my book.

JT

[Nik Habicht]

Just to stir the pot up a little bit… One shooter on my squad got a reshoot (I don’t remember who, and I don’t remember what stage) after he hit a popper twice and then left it standing. The Range Master didn’t fire a shot at it to calibrate it. They just determined that the popper was faulty and awarded a reshoot.

The shooter made a choice -- a risky choice -- and effectively won the calibration when the match officials discovered a problem. The other shooter also made a choice -- to shoot the popper down. It took multiple rounds. Ever seen someone fire a round, hit a plate low and crack the base right off? Are we certain that all eight rounds hit the calibration zone? Is it possible that one of the shooter's rounds hit low enough to have "been the bullet that finally broke the popper's back?" We can't know --- because the competitor shot the popper down.

If someone wants to propose a specific new draft for the rules dealing with steel, I'm thinking a new thread here would be a fine place to start.....

[Ben Stoeger]

It's taken a lot of evolution to get where we are. Before demanding changing what we have, you need to understand the rules as they are, and why we made them that way.

Care to enlighten us?

[Jadeslade]

Just to stir the pot up a little bit… One shooter on my squad got a reshoot (I don’t remember who, and I don’t remember what stage) after he hit a popper twice and then left it standing. The Range Master didn’t fire a shot at it to calibrate it. They just determined that the popper was faulty and awarded a reshoot.

The shooter made a choice -- a risky choice -- and effectively won the calibration when the match officials discovered a problem. The other shooter also made a choice -- to shoot the popper down. It took multiple rounds. Ever seen someone fire a round, hit a plate low and crack the base right off? Are we certain that all eight rounds hit the calibration zone? Is it possible that one of the shooter's rounds hit low enough to have "been the bullet that finally broke the popper's back?" We can't know --- because the competitor shot the popper down.

If someone wants to propose a specific new draft for the rules dealing with steel, I'm thinking a new thread here would be a fine place to start.....

Nik- It doesn't sound like somebody followed the rules.....

[TG Reaper]

look give her 4 seconds and she is still behind julie. she gains only a few spots is the overall. let's say good night on this discussion. max had a bad stage too.

lynn

Sorry Lynn. How about the popper falls with the first two dead center shots (like it is supposed to do), and Randi doesn't have to do the static reload after shooting an extra 6 shots on the first popper. She runs the stage in 10 seconds like Jessie and picks up 20 match points. Don't turn this post into something it's not.

In case no one has done the math on the penatlties involved if the poppers (plural) were left standing, it would be a mike for the "un" broken, "un" calibrated popper, a mike for the US popper behind it, and a FTE for the US popper since it could not be engaged. My math says that's 40 points down before the targets are scored on an 85 point stage.

Most of us know that popper calibration tests usually do NOT go the way of the competitor. You can have a center punched popper, shot with 180 PF ammo, staring you in the face at the end of a stage and it will usually fall when re-shot with a calibration load.

And Nik, in response to your comment, "Are we certain that all eight rounds hit the calibration zone?", the answer is YES. I got to stare at the target for 30 minutes while it was "fixed". But I guess I can't say "fixed" since it wasn't actually broken. So, I got to stare at it during the 30 minute "recalibration period"....

Good Shootin',

TGR

Edited September 17, 2009 by TG Reaper

[Chills1994]

DISCLAIMER: I have only skimmed over the past 5 pages of posts.

I have to agree with what Thomas Moore wrote back on page 3:

I too would like to see the rules change on the poppers. I feel if you pass chrono and you have a full diameter center hit on a popper and it doesn't go down, then that should be range failure and a reshoot for the competitor.

I have been there, done that, look here for yourself:

2007 Missouri / C.O.P.S. Fall Classic, my first major USPSA match

I made it to an RO class in November of 2007, where Gary Stevens set me and probably the whole class straight on what to do when a popper fails to fall.

Me? Personally? I would like to see poppers stacked one behind the other go away, permanently as a stage design. Especially rearward falling poppers where it would be easy to skip a bullet off of one and over the berm to parts unknown.

Oh, if you watch the vid linked to above, keep watching until the very end. Not even my fellow squadmates had a good handle on what to do...so I was getting all sorts of conflicting advice.

[Flexmoney]

This isn't the first time this has happened...at the Nationals..nor the second.

It's not the first time it was arb'd...using the same rule...and lost.