Why aren't there more Master level Production shooters?

[lugnut]

At the recent area match there were a bunch of Master level shooters in Open- some professional but many club shooters. In Production... it was Sevigny only as GM. There were NO Masters and not really that many 'A' class. Is this typical in other areas? If so what may be the reason?

[Jadeslade]

There are not a lot of Masters in Production nationwide. I think that Area 7 was just a confluence of things, I wouldn't read too much into it. There were a number of GM, Master and A shooters at Area 6 and Area 3. Dave Sevigny sets a high bar, no doubt. Open and Limited have been around a really long time. Just shoot what you like and appreciate the gun handling skills we get to use, a lot, in Production. My take on it.

[steel1212]

There is also a local type thing that goes on. Around here its pretty much all limited shooters. We go up to cinnci and its a ton of production shooters. Go down to TN and you have a lot of open guys. People want to compete where the creme of the crop is and that builds a larger pool.

[BSeevers]

The Pool is deeper in Open and Limited. No slight to Prod/SS/L10 or Revo, just a fact. Prod is gaining a fair share of M's and may be a deep Pool soon.

The majority of higher classed shooters end up in O/Lim and one reason is they are looking for the most competition.

Ya really can't judge things by a club match or one major, though.

[Aircooled6racer]

Hello: I think there are alot of guys who start out in Production then move to Limited and open. Then there are those like me who have gone back to Production or is that just trying it again and again. I hope to someday to make Master in production but it may take a little longer In the club here there are alot of Open shooters and Limited shooters. Not to many production or Limited 10. You could say the same about Revolver as well. That reminds me I need to shoot that more to get Classified. I shoot for fun and the enjoyment of getting better----someday. Hope this helps. Thanks, Eric

[mike cyrwus]

In big Texas matches, its all limited. Its just a regional thing, like the others noted.

[Micah]

Come to Ohio! Flex, Vogel (and less notably myself) are GM's in Prod, and there are several very strong A's (Adrian S. being one of them). Production seems to have the most shooters in the 4 club circuit surrounding the tri-state area.

[BSeevers]

In big Texas matches, its all limited. Its just a regional thing, like the others noted.

Like Double Tap? 30 GM/M Lim

31 in Open

9 in Prod

Last yr TX Open Champs 7 in Lim 13 in Open 0 Prod

Area 4 (not TX exactly)Lim 9 Open 9 1 Prod

TX kinda mirrors most big matches I have been to.

[Joe4d]

I'm noticing a lot of good shooters basically shooting production legal rigs, but loading to full capacity and shooting Limited,

[toddrod]

It is because in Production you have to actually aim.

[JThompson]

The Pool is deeper in Open and Limited. No slight to Prod/SS/L10 or Revo, just a fact. Prod is gaining a fair share of M's and may be a deep Pool soon.

The majority of higher classed shooters end up in O/Lim and one reason is they are looking for the most competition.

Ya really can't judge things by a club match or one major, though.

Nah, It's just that we don't like to reload.

[zero_down]

I think that many new shooters probably start in production but once they see all the cool gear in open/limited they just naturally switch.

More seriously though, I think that one gets to a level of shooting where you look for the faster reload so you want a mag well. You want a better trigger, sights, faster slide cycling, etc.. before you know it you've either had to change guns for a more custom fit or you've modified your gun so much that it is no longer a production gun.

[JThompson]

I think that many new shooters probably start in production but once they see all the cool gear in open/limited they just naturally switch.

More seriously though, I think that one gets to a level of shooting where you look for the faster reload so you want a mag well. You want a better trigger, sights, faster slide cycling, etc.. before you know it you've either had to change guns for a more custom fit or you've modified your gun so much that it is no longer a production gun.

I'm probably the exception, but when I came to the sport I saw a guy shooting an open gun and was blown away. I was like... how many rounds does that thing hold..? The damn thing was like the Top Fuel of the sport shooting world and it was to be my first gun. Funny, but we had a house match with no race stuff. I picked up my little Tanfo and had a blast. I enjoyed it so much I want to shoot more of it. MY eyes aren't the best, so I will have to do something with glasses, but there something really pure about production.

EDIT: I think it might have something to do with knowing that if you ever were to be in a gunfight, this is, most likely, the type of gun you would use. Being proficient with that type of a weapon has appeal on that level as well.

JT

Edited August 22, 2009 by JThompson

[zero_down]

EDIT: I think it might have something to do with knowing that if you ever were to be in a gunfight, this is, most likely, the type of gun you would use. Being proficient with that type of a weapon has appeal on that level as well.

JT

I agree with JT, I think that you should be proficient with the gun that you're most likely to do battle with which is why everynight I put on my jammies, cr speed rig, and open blaster before going to bed. You gotta be ready for the zombies when they come

Edited August 22, 2009 by zero_down

[BSeevers]

The Pool is deeper in Open and Limited. No slight to Prod/SS/L10 or Revo, just a fact. Prod is gaining a fair share of M's and may be a deep Pool soon.

The majority of higher classed shooters end up in O/Lim and one reason is they are looking for the most competition.

Ya really can't judge things by a club match or one major, though.

Nah, It's just that we don't like to reload.

Or Aim.

[JThompson]

The Pool is deeper in Open and Limited. No slight to Prod/SS/L10 or Revo, just a fact. Prod is gaining a fair share of M's and may be a deep Pool soon.

The majority of higher classed shooters end up in O/Lim and one reason is they are looking for the most competition.

Ya really can't judge things by a club match or one major, though.

Nah, It's just that we don't like to reload.

Or Aim.

We aim, we just aim faster.

[D.Hayden]

Considering the number of calissfiers USPSA has for each Division, Productions doing pretty well.

Class,Open,Limited,Ltd 10,Production,Revolver

GM,143,121,34,49,10

M,521,467,180,173,40

Number of Open classifiers on record 276540

Number of Limited classifiers on record 391886

Number of Limited 10 classifiers on record 125879

Number of Production classifiers on record 105408

[kevin c]

That's really good info, Dave. Thanks for putting it up.

[D.Hayden]

Kevin.. Should have included the link...

Summary of Class distribution:

http://www.uspsa.org/cgi-bin/db_class_summary.cgi

Top 20.. you're on there dude!

http://www.uspsa.org/cgi-bin/members/db_top20.cgi

[lugnut]

Well... this may be more indicative of what I was seeing:

Number of Shooters In each Class

Class Open Limited Ltd 10 Production Revolver

GM 143 121 34 49 10

M 521 467 180 173 40

A 751 841 476 377 103

B 1521 2221 1133 989 251

C 1555 3291 2321 2084 512

D 455 1285 1064 1143 216

U 12386 9106 12124 12517 16200

As you can see.. there are roughly the same amount of shooters in Production and Open.. yet there are almost 3 times as many

GM in Open as Production and more than twice the amount of Masters.

Oh well.. maybe it means nothing.. I was just curious.

[ammowaster]

I am a little confused by those numbers

Are there 49 GM production shooters on file

OR 49 separate GM classifiers on file

[Carlos]

Could also be that Production is compartively a "new" division compared with how long many M and GM shooters have been participating in USPSA (and IPSC before that). Then there are those stage designers who are old & who design stages that favor older divisions. Could be many factors at work here.

Well... this may be more indicative of what I was seeing:

Number of Shooters In each Class

Class Open Limited Ltd 10 Production Revolver

GM 143 121 34 49 10

M 521 467 180 173 40

A 751 841 476 377 103

B 1521 2221 1133 989 251

C 1555 3291 2321 2084 512

D 455 1285 1064 1143 216

U 12386 9106 12124 12517 16200

As you can see.. there are roughly the same amount of shooters in Production and Open.. yet there are almost 3 times as many

GM in Open as Production and more than twice the amount of Masters.

Oh well.. maybe it means nothing.. I was just curious.

[Flexmoney]

Production has been the most active division in the Ohio Section the last couple of years...even though it is relatively new. That seems to be the case in a couple of the neighboring sections as well.

I haven't checked any numbers this year, but it seems like locals are shooting more Limited this year.

It takes a lot of discipline to shoot a smaller capacity division...more so with Minor power factor.

Keep in mind, many folks have Open and Limited guns that are older than Production division (and they are almost paid off )

[Nik Habicht]

Well... this may be more indicative of what I was seeing:

Number of Shooters In each Class

Class Open Limited Ltd 10 Production Revolver

GM 143 121 34 49 10

M 521 467 180 173 40

A 751 841 476 377 103

B 1521 2221 1133 989 251

C 1555 3291 2321 2084 512

D 455 1285 1064 1143 216

U 12386 9106 12124 12517 16200

As you can see.. there are roughly the same amount of shooters in Production and Open.. yet there are almost 3 times as many

GM in Open as Production and more than twice the amount of Masters.

Oh well.. maybe it means nothing.. I was just curious.

There's one reason I can think of right off the bat -- you can't get to GM in production by being a GM in any other division and shooting four classifiers --- an Open GM could get an M card that way....

If we ignore the U category for the moment, it looks like production is more popular than open among the newest shooters in the sport -- the C and D class shooters. By the time you get to B and above the numbers skew the other way -- probably partly due to the relative longevity of the divisions....

Bottom line -- the only way to get your GM card in production is to actively pursue that, and to shoot enough 95% or better classifiers. Then some of those GMs and Masters decide to shoot a different division for an area match, because they're getting nostalgic, or want to evaluate their practice prior to shooting both Nats back-to-back, and there you have it....

[Carlos]

It takes a lot of discipline to shoot a smaller capacity division...more so with Minor power factor.

I think you are on to something. I often hear shooters say something to the effect of "I just want to have fun!" - and there are many ways to define what we find "fun" in this sport.

Many define "fun" as: going as fast as possible without stopping to reload or worrying about maximizing points. Major Limited and Open would obviously be attractive to such folks.

To each his own. I enjoy aspects of every Division. Heck, I just like shooting, period.