Turn THEN draw

[sperman]

I interpret Amidon's ruling to mean that regardless of where the muzzle is pointed, if you draw before turning its a DQ.

[UW Mitch]

I guess I'm confused by "access to the trigger" is prohibited. Does that mean if you actually access the trigger (aka finger in the trigger guard) or if access to the trigger is possible (aka you've started to draw and the gun is being lifted out of the holster thereby exposing the trigger to potential access).

Speerman - I hope the answer is your interpretation, but was not my initial understanding after reading the ruling.

~Mitch

[sperman]

I guess I'm confused by "access to the trigger" is prohibited. Does that mean if you actually access the trigger (aka finger in the trigger guard) or if access to the trigger is possible (aka you've started to draw and the gun is being lifted out of the holster thereby exposing the trigger to potential access).

Speerman - I hope the answer is your interpretation, but was not my initial understanding after reading the ruling.

~Mitch

That's the way it was explained in my RO class.

[MemphisMechanic]

That's one I never really got.. with the toes-touching-the-back-line draw that's so popular these days, if I pivot around by dropping my right foot (I'm a lefty), then I only have to turn less than 90 degrees before the muzzle is in a safe direction. Turning to the left I may have to go as far as 270 to make it with a muzzle-forward forward-of-the-hip Open setup.

Assuming production gear, since I've never shot Open, I've never been able to get my 'wrong way' turn as fast as my 'right way' turn - turning toward the holster being the "right" way.

I agree with your theory, but my timer doesn't. I have a tendency to swing past the initial target when turning the wrong way, which I don't when turning into the holster. Might be able to overcome that with practice, but it still feels sloppier.

[boz1911]

It is also upsetting to have a shooter enter the shooting area for an uprange start and assume an uprange starting position before any range commands. You can't tell if they are trying one more dry run or going to do something stupid. These are the only shooters where I deviate from strict range commands.

It happened at a Nationals where a shooter was practicing his start and at LMR drew his gun to load facing up range.

That's why I won't give a "make ready" command until the shooter is facing downrange. Sometimes that may be preceded by "let's face downrange".....

[mgood]

I guess I'm confused by "access to the trigger" is prohibited. Does that mean if you actually access the trigger (aka finger in the trigger guard) or if access to the trigger is possible (aka you've started to draw and the gun is being lifted out of the holster thereby exposing the trigger to potential access).

I was about to ask the same thing when I saw this post.

[MemphisMechanic]

...Sometimes that may be preceded by "let's face downrange".....

[High Lord Gomer]

During our RO class, Troy made the very good point that even if they tell you they are turning right (or left), iyou need to be ready for them to possibly turn the other way and there is no penalty for them doing so. (Though I'd certainly discuss that with them after the range was clear)

My understanding is that "access to the trigger" means the gun has been drawn far enough to allow access to the trigger, it does not require "accessing the trigger" to be a DQ.

Edited September 29, 2009 by High Lord Gomer

[kevin c]

Sorry guys, I can't find the thread, but I vividly remember it...

There was a video and huge discussion on Michael Voigt facing uprange, draw THEN turn. A bunch of people were accusing him of breaking the rules and not getting called on it, but it ended up there were provisions for it in the rulebook.

Is my memory correct? Does anyone else remember that video/thread? Did the rules change?

The rules did change.

NROI Rulings

Title: Drawing a handgun while facing uprange

Created: 11/11/08

Updated: 11/18/08

Effective: 11/18/08

Rule number: 10.5.16

Applies to: Pistol

Ruling authority: John Amidon

Status: Released

Question

The glossary in Appendix A3 gives the definition of facing uprange as "face and feet pointing straight uprange with shoulders parrell to the 90-degree median intercept of the back-stop. so if on the start signal my eyes turn towards the direction I am turning and my shoulders and feet are no longer in the their original position, am I considered to no longer being facing uprange and may draw my handgun without violating 10.5.16

Ruling

In order to assure consistent application of this rule, the following shall apply: After the start signal, regardless of the type of holster used, access to the trigger is prohibited until the competitor has rotated his body sufficiently to cause the holster's muzzle line to have passed through the point which represents "90 degrees from the median intercept of the backstop".

I can't remember whether it was Shred or Flex that had a video of himself on a stage with an facing uprange start, where he drew with the body still facing uprange but was safe because the holster position allowed the muzzle line to be downrange by the time the draw allowed trigger access. At first viewing it looks bad, but really isn't any different than seeing the side of the gun from uprange as targets on the 180 are being engaged. It's just a harder call for the RO, who needs to really be sharp on assessing the angle on the draw.

typo edit

Edited September 29, 2009 by kevin c

[open17]

Several references in this thread about turning to the strong side being faster. Kind of depends. It's faster

in Production and Single Stack for sure. I wear my open and limited guns a bit forward---the muzzle points

betwen my feet when holstered. In that case it's actually faster for me--a shorter distance to get past

the 180--to turn to the weak side. It also seems to be a bit easier to get on target with my gun arm to the

outside of the turn.

Worst uprange starting position? "Facing uprange, hands at sides". I've DQed 3 shooters for being a little

quick on the draw from that start position.

[sperman]

I can't remember whether it was Shred or Flex that had a video of himself on a stage with an facing uprange start,l where he drew with the body still facing uprange but was safe because the holster position allowed the muzzle line to be downrange by the time the draw allowed trigger access. At first viewing it looks bad, but really isn't any different than seeing the side of the gun from uprange as targets on the 180 are being engaged. It's just a harder call for the RO, who needs to really be sharp on assessing the angle on the draw.

Just remember, all it takes is one RO to think "it looks bad" and your day is done.  They don't have the advantage of watching the video over and over to see exactly what happened when.

[Dan Hefta]

Just remember, all it takes is one RO to think "it looks bad" and your day is done.  They don't have the advantage of watching the video over and over to see exactly what happened when.

That's exactly the point I have been trying to make to our local shooters, sometimes if you play with fire you get burned. So is it worth it? Not to me.

[kevin c]

Just remember, all it takes is one RO to think "it looks bad" and your day is done.  They don't have the advantage of watching the video over and over to see exactly what happened when.

Understood, but the example was to show that not everything that appears to be unsafe actually is. Assumptions of unsafe action aren't the same thing as unsafe action actually happening. That happened recently to some very good but safe shooters of my personal acquaintence.

All the same, being conservative rather than on the cutting edge is probably a worthwhile approach, especially when it comes to safety.

[BBoyle]

We pair new shooters with experienced shooters for this reason -- so that the experienced shooter can point out the potential pitfalls and suggest how to avoid them....

Hey Nik......How come I never get paired up with new shooters?????

I am not a certified RO. I have a decent working knowledge of the rules but I always ask someone new or unknown to me which way they will turn.

I have been surprised though, by shooters that I have known and shot with for years that I absolutely know what they are going to do and I am sure of it.....the shooter before them turns the other way and seemed to do a decent job so they change it up and turn to their weak side and come darn close to the 180 and in 1 case swept me. That is a nice feeling when you know that they break the safety barely out of the holster and a strong breeze can set the trigger off....................Good times

[sasquatch981]

My $.02 on asking the shooter which way they are turning.

It is always nice to ask, and most of the time the shooter will tell you so yo can be prepared.

It's also nice to know on the oddball lefty that shows up. Since they are turning the "wrong" way to 90% of the rest of the shooters. I know some RO's may get complacent on thinking everyone is turning the same way, and the lefty telling you they are turning the other way helps keep your focus sharp.

[wide45]

I don't care which way they turn. It makes no difference to what you do as an RO.

[LPatterson]

After working shooters who go into their own little world after "Make Ready" I am not going to ask because it doesn't matter as long as the trigger is not visible to touch before the turn gets the gun muzzle inside their 90 degress. This applies to Production shooters and Open shooters alike. If they posted reasons for DQs at the Handgun Nationals I think a large share of them were for this very reason. If not why would you have an RO standing near the 180 looking for this very condition. In my other life in the military, we would call that a smackdown or learning tool for other people. I'm sure at the end of the day people were talking about the DQ's and what they were for so it may have kept the numbers from getting bigger. This information will get out to the clubs and shooters that didn't attend the Nationals and work to help keep the sport as safe as it is.

[larry weeks]

If you're not an RO, take the class. You'll learn a whole lot! Then, run more than just a couple of shooters. I ran a whole squad at a match, with a real RO on my shoulder. I was only happy with my performance on about two of them. Darn tough, nerve wracking job. The stage allowed shooters to start in a couple of locations and they could go left or right and at one point could leave the box (no shooting while out) to shorten the route. They also went down a hallway so you couldn't follow too far. Tough course for a rookie. I think the other ROs mentioned the direction thing in the stage briefing and said something about letting us know. The RO can't ask which way they are going and you have to be ready for either. The ROs I worked with put the score keeper on the opposite side from the RO with the timer. That way, no matter which way the shooter went, someone could see the gun. Some shooters told us which way they were going to run, others didn't. My goal was to not have my coach push my shoulder to move me in, or grab it to pull me back, but I was damn happy he was there to do it! Never got in a shooters way, never reset the timer and managed to keep it pointed at the gun so it could "hear". Gave me a new appreciation for the guys who've been running me for the last couple of years.