UW Mitch Posted August 17, 2009 Share Posted August 17, 2009 Just wanted to throw up a reminder for RO's and new shooters. Sometimes we have stages that start facing uprange. The stage description doesn't always explicitly state "turn then draw" as it's implicit in the rules. However, when you're ROing a new shooter, it would be well advised to give them that reminder BEFORE "make ready". Just to make sure they're head is in the game (they're thinking "first things first") and they don't get ahead of themselves. It is very scary for all involved when someone does the "draw then turn." Proactively helping new shooters will create a safer shooting environment and be more welcoming to them. [/end of public service announcements] ~Mitch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted August 17, 2009 Share Posted August 17, 2009 I take it something....interesting happened this past weekend? Did you get to examine the fine polish job on the interior of someone's bore? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted August 17, 2009 Share Posted August 17, 2009 We pair new shooters with experienced shooters for this reason -- so that the experienced shooter can point out the potential pitfalls and suggest how to avoid them.... It could be turn then draw, potential for 180 trouble while moving downrange or while reloading, potential for turning the wrong way when leaving a position, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Ennis Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 +1 Mitch. That is the reason why 99.9% of the time i turn into my strong side. It might not be the fastest way to do it on a stage but IMHO it is the safest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 Actually, turning to the strong side generally IS the fast way to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 That's one I never really got.. with the toes-touching-the-back-line draw that's so popular these days, if I pivot around by dropping my right foot (I'm a lefty), then I only have to turn less than 90 degrees before the muzzle is in a safe direction. Turning to the left I may have to go as far as 270 to make it with a muzzle-forward forward-of-the-hip Open setup. The advice is good though; we had a couple new shooters on Nuevo El Prez the other day... reminded both and they both did fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UW Mitch Posted August 18, 2009 Author Share Posted August 18, 2009 Another thing I'll change is asking the shooter which way they intend to turn. I know the shooter is not obligated to tell me, but next time I'll ask. I assumed the shooter was going to turn to pivot on the strong side as this is what most of us do. So right handed shooter facing up range, I stood off to his left. Which exposed for a long time as he swept past me while pivoting on his left foot. I didn't want to startle him with the "STOP" command as he swept past me, so once we got by, I issued the STOP and to his credit, his finger was (as it should be) still indexed on the frame. No one wants to issue a DQ and no one wants to be DQ'ed - more importantly, no one wants to get hurt. Be safe out there! ~Mitch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 Another thing I'll change is asking the shooter which way they intend to turn. I know the shooter is not obligated to tell me, but next time I'll ask. Actually, if you as an RO/SO ask the shooter, "What way are you going to turn?" on a pivot start, they are obligated to tell you. Actually I don't believe I've ever done a pivot start when the RO/SO hasn't asked me that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
h2osport Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 I always tell the RO which way I intend to turn just to make it as easy on them as I can. Randy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 Another thing I'll change is asking the shooter which way they intend to turn. I know the shooter is not obligated to tell me, but next time I'll ask. Actually, if you as an RO/SO ask the shooter, "What way are you going to turn?" on a pivot start, they are obligated to tell you. Actually I don't believe I've ever done a pivot start when the RO/SO hasn't asked me that. Duane, not according to the USPSA rulebook. "Which way are you turning?" is not part of the range commands..... You can certainly ask..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 Sorry, to me that just seems like a common sense safety precaution to ask. And I just can't imagine any shooter responding, "None of your business." Does the Rule Book also say you can't say anything, or ask any questions in the interests of safety, other than the prescribed range commands? Understand, I'm asking because I don't know, not trying to be difficult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JThompson Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 I always ask and then move the gallery to the other side, just in case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 Ask before you give the "Make Ready" command (which signifies the start of the cof in USPSA). Once the cof has started, you only want to be using range commands (by the book). They are not obligated to tell you, but it would be polite of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boz1911 Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 If there are new shooters present I will emphasize the "turn then" draw part of the walkthrough. I don't ask shooters which way they are turning anymore. If they want to volunteer that info, so be it, other than that I feel it's my responsibilty to keep the shooter under my control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 Another thing I'll change is asking the shooter which way they intend to turn. I know the shooter is not obligated to tell me, but next time I'll ask. I assumed the shooter was going to turn to pivot on the strong side as this is what most of us do. So right handed shooter facing up range, I stood off to his left. Which exposed for a long time as he swept past me while pivoting on his left foot. I didn't want to startle him with the "STOP" command as he swept past me, so once we got by, I issued the STOP and to his credit, his finger was (as it should be) still indexed on the frame.No one wants to issue a DQ and no one wants to be DQ'ed - more importantly, no one wants to get hurt. Be safe out there! ~Mitch Why would you stop him? Is this the shooter that drew before turning? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xsniper Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 Another thing I'll change is asking the shooter which way they intend to turn. I know the shooter is not obligated to tell me, but next time I'll ask. I assumed the shooter was going to turn to pivot on the strong side as this is what most of us do. So right handed shooter facing up range, I stood off to his left. Which exposed for a long time as he swept past me while pivoting on his left foot. I didn't want to startle him with the "STOP" command as he swept past me, so once we got by, I issued the STOP and to his credit, his finger was (as it should be) still indexed on the frame.No one wants to issue a DQ and no one wants to be DQ'ed - more importantly, no one wants to get hurt. Be safe out there! ~Mitch Good call in waiting till the gun was past before issueing the "STOP". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UW Mitch Posted August 18, 2009 Author Share Posted August 18, 2009 Another thing I'll change is asking the shooter which way they intend to turn. I know the shooter is not obligated to tell me, but next time I'll ask. I assumed the shooter was going to turn to pivot on the strong side as this is what most of us do. So right handed shooter facing up range, I stood off to his left. Which exposed for a long time as he swept past me while pivoting on his left foot. I didn't want to startle him with the "STOP" command as he swept past me, so once we got by, I issued the STOP and to his credit, his finger was (as it should be) still indexed on the frame.No one wants to issue a DQ and no one wants to be DQ'ed - more importantly, no one wants to get hurt. Be safe out there! ~Mitch Why would you stop him? Is this the shooter that drew before turning? BEEP....gun leaves the holster he starts it swinging toward me, I don't want to startle him because I don't believe he can stop before it's pointed directly at me, it's definitely pointed at the other shooters watching, he goes past me, I see lots of muzzle, I issue STOP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgood Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 I'm still fairly new to this sport. But it's my understanding that, if done correctly, you can turn faster than you can draw. So when it's done properly, before you can point the pistol at anything other than the ground, you should already be facing more or less toward the targets. Actually I don't believe I've ever done a pivot start when the RO/SO hasn't asked me that. I don't think I've ever been asked. I have told ROs, on certain stages, I'm going to do this then I'm going to do this. Especially when my plan is a little different from what others have been doing and if I see potential for the RO to be caught off guard and not know where I'm going or get in my way. Telling him which way I'm going to turn is probably a good idea. I'll try to remember to do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff686 Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 Sorry guys, I can't find the thread, but I vividly remember it... There was a video and huge discussion on Michael Voigt facing uprange, draw THEN turn. A bunch of people were accusing him of breaking the rules and not getting called on it, but it ended up there were provisions for it in the rulebook. Is my memory correct? Does anyone else remember that video/thread? Did the rules change? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPatterson Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 It is also upsetting to have a shooter enter the shooting area for an uprange start and assume an uprange starting position before any range commands. You can't tell if they are trying one more dry run or going to do something stupid. These are the only shooters where I deviate from strict range commands. It happened at a Nationals where a shooter was practicing his start and at LMR drew his gun to load facing up range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 I'm still fairly new to this sport. But it's my understanding that, if done correctly, you can turn faster than you can draw. So when it's done properly, before you can point the pistol at anything other than the ground, you should already be facing more or less toward the targets. Sure. But a lot of new shooters just aren't that fast yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 Another thing I'll change is asking the shooter which way they intend to turn. I know the shooter is not obligated to tell me, but next time I'll ask. I assumed the shooter was going to turn to pivot on the strong side as this is what most of us do. So right handed shooter facing up range, I stood off to his left. Which exposed for a long time as he swept past me while pivoting on his left foot. I didn't want to startle him with the "STOP" command as he swept past me, so once we got by, I issued the STOP and to his credit, his finger was (as it should be) still indexed on the frame.No one wants to issue a DQ and no one wants to be DQ'ed - more importantly, no one wants to get hurt. Be safe out there! ~Mitch Why would you stop him? Is this the shooter that drew before turning? BEEP....gun leaves the holster he starts it swinging toward me, I don't want to startle him because I don't believe he can stop before it's pointed directly at me, it's definitely pointed at the other shooters watching, he goes past me, I see lots of muzzle, I issue STOP. 10-4. I thought you were stopping him just because he turned the wrong way. (Sometimes I'm a little slow on the uptake.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 Sorry guys, I can't find the thread, but I vividly remember it...There was a video and huge discussion on Michael Voigt facing uprange, draw THEN turn. A bunch of people were accusing him of breaking the rules and not getting called on it, but it ended up there were provisions for it in the rulebook. Is my memory correct? Does anyone else remember that video/thread? Did the rules change? The rules did change. NROI Rulings Title: Drawing a handgun while facing uprange Created: 11/11/08 Updated: 11/18/08 Effective: 11/18/08 Rule number: 10.5.16 Applies to: Pistol Ruling authority: John Amidon Status: Released Question The glossary in Appendix A3 gives the definition of facing uprange as "face and feet pointing straight uprange with shoulders parrell to the 90-degree median intercept of the back-stop. so if on the start signal my eyes turn towards the direction I am turning and my shoulders and feet are no longer in the their original position, am I considered to no longer being facing uprange and may draw my handgun without violating 10.5.16 Ruling In order to assure consistent application of this rule, the following shall apply: After the start signal, regardless of the type of holster used, access to the trigger is prohibited until the competitor has rotated his body sufficiently to cause the holster's muzzle line to have passed through the point which represents "90 degrees from the median intercept of the backstop". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Burwell Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 I had a new shooter DQ himself last weekend for the draw then turn after I had told him about 3 times to turn THEN draw. Luckily I had asked him which direction he was going to turn and I had moved the peanut gallery to the opposite side of the bay, so no one was swept. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UW Mitch Posted August 18, 2009 Author Share Posted August 18, 2009 Sorry guys, I can't find the thread, but I vividly remember it...There was a video and huge discussion on Michael Voigt facing uprange, draw THEN turn. A bunch of people were accusing him of breaking the rules and not getting called on it, but it ended up there were provisions for it in the rulebook. Is my memory correct? Does anyone else remember that video/thread? Did the rules change? The rules did change. NROI Rulings Title: Drawing a handgun while facing uprange Created: 11/11/08 Updated: 11/18/08 Effective: 11/18/08 Rule number: 10.5.16 Applies to: Pistol Ruling authority: John Amidon Status: Released Question The glossary in Appendix A3 gives the definition of facing uprange as "face and feet pointing straight uprange with shoulders parrell to the 90-degree median intercept of the back-stop. so if on the start signal my eyes turn towards the direction I am turning and my shoulders and feet are no longer in the their original position, am I considered to no longer being facing uprange and may draw my handgun without violating 10.5.16 Ruling In order to assure consistent application of this rule, the following shall apply: After the start signal, regardless of the type of holster used, access to the trigger is prohibited until the competitor has rotated his body sufficiently to cause the holster's muzzle line to have passed through the point which represents "90 degrees from the median intercept of the backstop". While that may be the case, if the competitor violates 10.5.2 it's still a DQ: 10.5.2 If at any time during the course of fire, a competitor allows the muzzle of his handgun to point rearwards,that is further than 90 degrees from the median intercept of the backstop, or in the case of no backstop, allows the muzzle to point up range, whether the handgun is loaded or not (limited exceptions: 10.5.6). 10.5.6 While facing downrange, allowing the muzzle of a loaded handgun to point uprange beyond a radius of 3 feet from a competitor's feet while drawing or re-holstering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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