Shooter shooting production, gets bumped to open

[JThompson]

We're throwing around the "Cheating" thing pretty easily here --- I've been present or made the call when three of my friends made the move to open division.....

All of them were used to using an 11 round mag at "Make Ready." All of them managed to negotiate unloaded gun starts for years without problems, until the day they forgot to pull the extra round out of their start mag. (Every one of those stages may have involved the "unloaded gun and mag on table" as a start position.)

All of them made a mistake; all of them accepted it gracefully, all of them now only load all mags to ten.....

I'll maintain pointblank that most competitors get bumped to Open for either making a mistake or not understanding or knowing an equipment rule.....

I said the same thing in my post, but to claim a 9mm production gun is shooting major is ridiculous.

[JThompson]

Well, first off, there is a difference between cheating and gaming.

While I agree that claiming a power factor that you know you can't achieve is cheating, I think the key, (in this hypothetical situation), is to be able to prove it. Just listening to it won't get it, unless you have some sort of super power that the rest of us mere mortals don't have.

Second, as RO's, CRO's, or RM's, we are all bound to abide by the rule book. Read the rules, enforce the rules. If you can find rules to support your actions, then point them out. I've indicated several rules that I believe support what would be my call in this case, and even postulated some very real circumstances where this situation could occur. Just saying "cheater, cheater, cheater" because someone gets bumped out of their division isn't good enough, IMO. In almost every instance I've seen, a competitor that gets bumped to Open from Production does so because he made an honest mistake and/or didn't understand the rules of Production, which can seem petty at times, unless you understand the goal of Production division. Things like a piece of grip tape in the wrong place, or a Seattle slug inserted in the grip seem innocuous to most casual competitors, but will bust the Production division rules. One of the most common things I've seen is one too many rounds in a magazine. That's not cheating in my book, it's just ignorance of the rules, or inattention when getting ready. We don't want to beat people over the head with the rule book, therefore you get bumped to Open, where all guns fit, and can continue to shoot. In matches where there is no Open, that's pretty severe, but it's not a DQ. Your call here seems pretty severe to me, given the fact that we are discussing a "what if" situation. I agree that claiming 9mm major is a big stretch, but shooting major in Production is not uncommon.

I'm sure the Instructor group will be discussing this one. I could be proven wrong, or beat about the head and shoulders until I give up, I don't know.

At this time, absent a chronograph, I don't think the rules support forcing a competitor to shoot minor if they get bumped to Open, if they claim that they are actually shooting major. Again, that's my opinion, based on my read of the rules.

Troy

You try that crap if I was the RM, esp shooting 9mm and it was obvious to me from the sound of it it wasn't major. I'd send your gaming ass packing.

Look, for whatever reason the guy did not comply with production rules and gets bumped, we still let him shoot for score, which I think it very lenient already, esp if cheating got him to open. I know there are many cases where you could get bumped without cheating, but the fact is you didn't comply with the rules for the class you signed up for. At that point you are lucky we even let you shoot for score. I refuse to reward a second bad act to help negate the first. You start in production, you are scored minor no matter where you end up and I don't care if you are shooting hot ammo.

10.6.1

Competitors will be disqualified from a match for conduct which a

Range Officer deems to be unsportsmanlike. Examples of unsports-

manlike conduct include, but are not limited to, cheating, dishonesty,

failing to comply with the reasonable directions of a Match Official, or

any behavior likely to bring the sport into disrepute. The Range Master

must be notified as soon as possible.

If a guy shooting a 9mm in production gets bumped to open and claims major he's "cheating and dishonest" because there is no way the guy was shooting 9 major in production. There are many rules in the book that take some common sense to apply and I sure as hell can tell a 130pf from a 170pf. I would have to suspend common sense to let him claim major. What's more, if this "hypothetical" guy is claiming major then it's someone that's going to cheat any way they can and that my friend, brings the sport to disrepute.

I guess it's good I'm not an RM and only a CRO cause that would be my ruling.

Now if he's shooting a .40 It's more possible and I would be less likely to make the call unless they sounded like mouse farts.

I respect your opinions Troy, and many of the others here, but I feel strongly enough about this one to go against the grain.

Best,

JT

Edited July 18, 2009 by JThompson

[Spray_N_Prey]

JThompson,

I wish that I would have been more careful to choose my post, I would have changed it to shooting .40 or .357 sig in production, instead of 9mm, BUT I truely am glad that we came up with a scenerio that has so many rule knowledge shooters and RO's stumped. I will try to keep them coming....

although this is a hypothetical scenerio, i'm VERY, VERY surprised someone hasn't came up with this yet. Although the scenerio is "completely made-up" there was something that happened that could have warranted this in a local match, a police officer was shooting production (not familiar with USPSA too much) and was shooting his duty gun and I saw that he was loading to full capacity and was shooting in production. He was not trying to cheat, just only shot probably 5-6 matches and where this happened, the RO's would have never caught this, I happen to attend this match that I usually travel out of town to shoot another and just happen to catch it. It was pointed out and the shooter didn't even know he did something wrong and going to open class was no big deal, but when I was talking to another buddy about it after the match, the point was he was shooting "duty ammo" which was hollow point speer gold dots, which would easily make major and that's where the "what if" came about. After a short conversation, we came up with "well why couldn't the shooter just do that in 9mm also? since if this scenerio might come up the 9mm would be more likely than someone shooting "self defense ammo". I should have used that scenerio rather than saying "9mm". I think it would have cut out alot of threads, but the point is still the same.

Can the shooter claim major "no matter what caliber" ? and I don't think that has been answered in the rule book and maybe should be something that the rules committee might need to look at.

Hopefully I haven't set off a chain reaction of people that when get bumped to open, decide to shoot "major",

[mactiger]

This is a very interesting discussion, Shawn, thanks for bringing it up.

Jim, I have to say I'd agree with you in principal about the 9mm Major thing, and would at the very least give the guy the chance to change his mind before I DQ'd him. I think you are correct that claiming major in 9mm is pretty "out there", and I said so in an earlier post. Getting bumped to Open is not necessarily cheating, but making that claim most likely is.

But, expanding on this hypothetical question, there is a possibility of this happening with someone shooting a larger caliber. The question in my mind is whether the rule book covers this situation, especially if there isn't a chronograph to verify the PF. And, I don't think it does. The language in the Production division rules merely says NA for both Major PF and bullet weight for major (which sort of has to follow), but my read of it tells me that major is simply not available for scoring in production, not that you are claiming minor PF.

If Shawn had posted this as a .40 or .357 SIG gun, not a 9mm, would your response be different?

Troy

[kgunz11]

Jim, you have both a 9mm Production gun and a 9mm Major gun. If you got bumped into Open while shooting your Production gun, you COULD grab a box of Major out of the car and rock on if it were safe in your gun, right? If you did, wouldn't you want to be able to be scored Major? If you had the opportunity, would it not be better to be scored Major?

All of this is far stretched, but what Troy says has merit. You have to enforce the rules as they are written, rather you like them or not. That is the duty of a Range Officer. You cannot let emotion or personal thoughts get involved, you have to use the rule book. The rulebook has written rules to determine the PF of a competitors ammo, and in the event there is no chronograph you have to take their word on it.

Another thought for you... Susan is shooting a Steelmaster, which is an STI gun made for 9Minor. If you saw her shooting at the club level and noticed her gun not recoiling very much, would you assume she was shooting minor? Or would you think her hubby might have put the heavy recoil master in there and now she was shooting Major PF ammo in a 9mm shorty and has superior recoil management because she is a left handed person shooting right handed and has good strength in her left hand which allows her to better manage her recoil? I know it's a totally different scenario, but my point is the rule book says the competitor's declared PF cannot be challenged in the absence of an official match chrono.

The part about allowing the competitor to change his declared PF after the match begins because he/she gets bumped to Open is the puzzling part. Nothing is in the rule book to state yes or no. I'd think the call would be on the RM, as he has final call in all things scoring.

[sperman]

Jim, you have both a 9mm Production gun and a 9mm Major gun. If you got bumped into Open while shooting your Production gun, you COULD grab a box of Major out of the car and rock on if it were safe in your gun, right? If you did, wouldn't you want to be able to be scored Major? If you had the opportunity, would it not be better to be scored Major?

I think if you have to change ammo to make major you have no chance. If you've already shot a stage with minor ammo, you're shooting minor, period.

[kgunz11]

"If you've already shot a stage", but if you haven't?

[mactiger]

Jim, you have both a 9mm Production gun and a 9mm Major gun. If you got bumped into Open while shooting your Production gun, you COULD grab a box of Major out of the car and rock on if it were safe in your gun, right? If you did, wouldn't you want to be able to be scored Major? If you had the opportunity, would it not be better to be scored Major?

The ammo change would be problematic. In the original question, the shooter claimed to be shooting major ammo already. Changing ammo to make major would be a separate issue.

Troy

[Navysteve]

Ok let's say a shooter was shooting production, had a holster / gun issue that bumped him to open and then once in open, the shooter claims but i'm shooting 9mm MAJOR.

if the match (Level I) was not using a chrono, would you have to allow this?

BTW this didn't happen and is only a hypathetical discussion that a buddy of mine and myself were discussing.

I'm going to give two answers.

1. I looked through the rule book and after about 1 hour and 24 min I have used the these rules in my conclusion.

5.2.5.2 Any competitor who fails the foregoing test will be required to immediately adjust his holster or equipment to comply with the requirements of the relevant Division. The Range Master may make allowances for variations is these requirements due to anatomical considerations. Some competitors may not be able to fully comply.

5.6.1 One or more official match chronographs are used to assist in the determination of the power factor of every competitor's ammunition. In the absence of official match chronograph, the power factor declared by a competitor cannot be challenged.

6.2.3 Prior to the commencement of a match, each competitor must declare one Division for score. Match Officials should check holsters and other competitor equipment for compliance with the declared Division prior to the competitor making an attempt at any of the courses of fire.

6.2.5 Where a Division is unavailable of deleted, or where a competitor fails to declare a specific Division prior to the commencement of a match, the competitor will be placed in the Division which, in the opinion of the Range Master, most closely identifies with the competitor's equipment. If, in the opinion of the Range Master, no suitable Division is available, the competitor will shoot the match for no score.

6.2.5.1 However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other requirements of a declared Division during a course of fire, the competitor will be placed in Open Division, if available, otherwise the competitor will shoot the match for no score.

6.2.5.2 A competitor who is classified or reclassified as above must be notified ASAP. The Range Master's decision on these matters is final.

6.4.4 An individual may be barred from participating in a USPSA match, at the match director's discretion, if the person:

b. has demonstrated behavior which would or may disrupt the match, or which would bring disrepute to the sport

10.6.1 Competitors will be disqualified from a match for conduct which a Range Officer deems to be unsportsmanlike. Examples of unsportsmanlike conduct include, but are not limited to, cheating, dishonesty, failing to comply with reasonable directions of a Match Official, or any behavior likely to bring the sport into disrepute. The Range Master must be notified ASAP.

This is a hard question to answer, but after looking at the rules I would allow the competitor to use major scoring if he/she has not already completed one stage. Because the competitor chose not to shoot production and to shoot open, if during a stage or anytime after the first shot fired the competitor is placed into the Open Division he/she will remain minor. {A competitor would not be allowed to go back and reshoot the stages with a larger mag there for the competitor would not be allowed to "retrofit" his score with major, and therefor cannot move to major but can start to use larger mags.} All of this is assuming that the person was honest.

Answer 2 if this happened at a local match I would let him shoot production, unless he is running an "Open Rig," and inform him that he needs to fix what ever it is, before the next match. And that would be the end of it.

If you know me, I am a "GAMER" and I try to be as easy with the rules as possible when I'm running a match. I like to see what people will do and see if it works. Just stay safe.

Sorry for the really ..... really long answer. But so much fun.

[wide45]

"If you've already shot a stage", but if you haven't?

If you have not yet shot a stage, you can fix you gear to comply with Production rules, or chose another Division such as Limited.

The bump to open only happens after you have violated the Division requirements during a course of fire.

[mpolans]

I hardly think shooting a Production gun in Open Division, even with alleged "major" ammo qualifies as gaining a competitive advantage relative to the new division he's competing in (Open).

Even if the guy was obviously minor, but there wasn't a chrono available, I'd score him as major, but rag on him relentlessly about how he had the quietest 9 Major loads I had ever heard.

If there was a chrono available, I don't see any problem with chrono-ing his ammo. Heck, if the RM doesn't require it, I believe another competitor could protest and then his ammo would be chrono'ed.

[Chuck Anderson]

I hardly think shooting a Production gun in Open Division, even with alleged "major" ammo qualifies as gaining a competitive advantage relative to the new division he's competing in (Open).

Even if the guy was obviously minor, but there wasn't a chrono available, I'd score him as major, but rag on him relentlessly about how he had the quietest 9 Major loads I had ever heard.

If there was a chrono available, I don't see any problem with chrono-ing his ammo. Heck, if the RM doesn't require it, I believe another competitor could protest and then his ammo would be chrono'ed.

That's great until he beats the relatively new shooter who is just getting started. That shooter looks to the RM who is clearly allowing the shooter to cheat, as evidenced by him ragging on the guy for his powderpuff ammo. I doubt that shooter will return to shoot with a bunch of cheaters.

If the guy has already shot a stage minor, there is no way for the scoring program to leave that stage minor and the rest major. There is no way I would allow a shooter to be scored major on a stage he already shot minor.

[sperman]

IMO, betting bumped to Open is supposed to be a competitive DIS-advantage. You screwed up. Take your lumps, learn from it and move on. I can't quote rules to support this opinion, but it's what I would do if it happened to me.

[EkuJustice]

Make it real interesting. He claims to be shooting 9mm major yet is shooting out of a 100 round box of WWB that you know is not going to make close to major. While not absolute you can usually tell if the gun is shooting minor PF instead of the Major Pf to an extent. Guy shooting a 9mm major no comp in a light weight gun like a glock that gun is gonna be very noticeable compared to it shooting minor PF loads

[Flexmoney]

You can't "notice" minor. You might think you can. But, no.

I have been asked...many times...if I was shooting minor out of my Glocks when I was running Major.

However, loading up WWB out of a 100-round val-u-pak...

[eerw]

You can't "notice" minor. You might think you can. But, no.

I have been asked...many times...if I was shooting minor out of my Glocks when I was running Major.

However, loading up WWB out of a 100-round val-u-pak...

or just using the boxes..watched Manny load his mags with ammo out of blazer boxes..guess what..he wasn't shooting blazer..

you don't know unless you chronograph...period..

[leam]

I know a guy who was loading 9mm Major for Open. Not sure it was the best idea, but not my gun. 9mm brass is easier to find. Absent a Chrono, the shooter can declare major.

How you deal with the individual is seperate from how you deal with the competitor. In the match you go by the rules. Outside of the match you deal with personality traits.

Leam