Shooter shooting production, gets bumped to open

[Spray_N_Prey]

So there shouldn't be any problem with breaking out a chrono and having just one shooter have to shoot through it?

I just thought there would be some issues there. Usually someone at the range does have a chrono.

[steel1212]

If I was shooting production and was shooting open gun loads out of it (for whatever reason) I'd probably declare minor so

1. you don't confuse anyone

2. others don't think you're trying to get major scoring (in production)

3. answer all of the questions from everyone as to why you're shooting major in production

4. take away the possibility of the scorer making a mistake and giving you major pf points on some or all of the stages, and

4. you don't create a head scratcher for anyone looking at the stage and overall results with 'production' 'major' on the same line.

If your using Ezwin it won't let you score production as anything but minor anyway. I mean what are the real chances of anybody shooting major 9 ammo in production to start with....very slim right? Also, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to tell the difference in the 2 rounds if they where to shoot them either. All I'm saying is if you don't have a chrono, you go with what he wrote down to start with like ima45dv8 said and he wrote down minor. It is all you have to go on and they wrote down minor to start with.

[Pat Miles]

If the guy declared Production minor and then changes his mind and declares major because he was put in Open he should have to prove which power factor his ammo qualifys for. He's the one who is making conflicting statements about his power factor. Nobody else is accusing him.

CYa,

Pat

Edited July 16, 2009 by whatmeworry

[steel1212]

So there shouldn't be any problem with breaking out a chrono and having just one shooter have to shoot through it?

I just thought there would be some issues there. Usually someone at the range does have a chrono.

I don't see why not. If the shooter is telling the truth well then he should be good to go. If not then it just proves a point. Its a tool in the box....use it if you have to.

[short_round]

its a level one match we just let the cheaters run on by.....

"Let's face it, our sport is not for everyone. It is sometimes easier to make excuses than it is to make ready."

The story contains:

1) A competitor willing to participate in the shenanigans that will get him thrown into open class.

2) This competitor is hated by everyone so much that they would rather throw him into open than let him fix whatever it is and stay in production.

3) This person then has the audacity to declare major which you cannot disprove because you have no chrono.

The choices are:

1) Stay and fight with a guy who will never change and you cannot fix that probably won't last long in the sport anyway.

2) Let it go, focus on what you need to do to accomplish the goal you set out for that day, and LMR.

[kgunz11]

5.6.1 One or more official match chronographs are used to assist in the determination

of the power factor of every competitor’s ammunition. In the

absence of official match chronograph(s), the power factor declared by

a competitor cannot be challenged.

22 • USPSA Handgun Rules, January 2008 Edition

5.6.1.1 The power factor rating to enable a competitor’s scores to be

included in match results is called “Minor”. Some Divisions

offer a higher power factor rating called “Major”, which enables

competitors to earn more points for peripheral shots on scoring

paper targets.

5.6.1.2 The power factor floor for Minor rating and the power factor

floor for Major rating, if available, and other specific requirements

applicable to each Division are stipulated in Appendix D.

5.6.1.3 The associated values awarded for Minor and Major scoring hits

are illustrated in Appendix B.

5.6.1.4 The method used to determine power factor and the procedures

used at the Chronograph Station are stipulated in Appendix C2.

Chronograph(s):

1. The chronograph(s) must be shielded from the effects of changing sunlight.

Setting the chronograph(s) in the shade of a tree, or under a cover which

allows a differing amount of sunlight to touch any part of the skyscreens or

skyscreen brackets is prohibited. The recommended method for outdoor

locations is to use an enclosed “chrono box”. In all locations, the use of

either infrared sensors or incandescent lighting provides the most consistent,

repeatable results.

2. Two chronographs should be used when possible and set up in tandem so

both units measure each shot fired.

3. In all cases, the skyscreens must be positioned and spaced per the manufacturer’s

requirements for the chronograph in use. The closest skyscreen must

be placed no less than 10 feet from the shooting location.

4. When possible, the chronograph(s) should be run on AC power. If using

generator power, the chronograph readings must be monitored for consistency.

If using battery power, the battery must be changed or recharged as

necessary to insure consistent results.

5. Failing these conditions, or in the absence of a chronograph, the match must

use each competitor’s declared Power Factor for match scoring.

If the competitor declares Major... well it cannot be challenged according to the rules. I don't know if the competitor would be allowed to change their declaration. The Division rules used on sign sheets make this a tricky situation.

[rvb]

assuming no chrono used for all* competitors...

a) If no stages had been shot, I'd say accept the major declaration.

B ) If stages had been shot with minor declared (either by choice or division rules), then this is the closest that I can find... once a stage is shot and scored minor, everything is will be minor.

pg If a competitor’s match ammunition is retested, or if any authorized replacement

ammunition is used, and different power factors are recorded when

tested according to these rules, the lower power factor must be applied to all

courses of fire, including those already completed by the competitor.

But this section technically only applies for retesting or replacement ammo... so... I guess w/o an official chrono, accept the major declaration and move on... although I do not see a provision to be allowed to change declared pf, which happens prior to the first shot, so.... my final opinion is, if shots already fired then he stays minor. If no shots fired then he can be major....

*5.6.1 One or more official match chronographs are used to assist in the determination

of the power factor of every competitor’s ammunition.

-rvb

Edited July 16, 2009 by rvb

[Gary Stevens]

So Gary

I could use my SS 9mm in Open division and load Major 9?

I didn't know that.

I learned something here...

Yep. I've cranked off a few major supers in my single stack. Works fine, not something I want to do on a regular basis though.

It is not your fault. We all, well most of us, when we think "Open" we think of a typical full house race gun. In reality though, "Open" is sort of like street racing, "run what you brung" (yeah I know). If it is using a 170 mm magazine, or less, and is a .355 bullet, at least, then stoke 'em up cowboy.

[Gary Stevens]

its a level one match we just let the cheaters run on by.....

"Let's face it, our sport is not for everyone. It is sometimes easier to make excuses than it is to make ready."

The story contains:

1) A competitor willing to participate in the shenanigans that will get him thrown into open class.

2) This competitor is hated by everyone so much that they would rather throw him into open than let him fix whatever it is and stay in production.

3) This person then has the audacity to declare major which you cannot disprove because you have no chrono.

The choices are:

1) Stay and fight with a guy who will never change and you cannot fix that probably won't last long in the sport anyway.

2) Let it go, focus on what you need to do to accomplish the goal you set out for that day, and LMR.

WOW I really like that quote!!!!

Edited July 16, 2009 by Gary Stevens

[mactiger]

One point that's being missed here is that Production Division is always scored minor. No need to declare. Wakal pointed out that there are probably several gun/ammo combos that would in fact make major, but by rule are minor. That's the thing with Production. Guys that shoot .40 in Production generally load down for it, but you don't have to if you don't want to.

In this scenario, the competitor did not need to declare any PF--it's assigned to him. If he gets moved to Open division and then declares Major (Open being a division where you can declare a PF), then IMO, he'd have to be scored Major unless there was a chronograph being used.

Troy

[BigTinVA]

There is a question posted in this months Front Sight magazine in the NROI section (page 24) that asks about a competitor that gets bumped to Open Division and he wants to switch guns and use his Open gun since he is now competing in the Open Division. Reminds me of this scenario.

Edited July 16, 2009 by BigTinVA

[short_round]

WOW I really like that quote!!!!

Me too!

Totally why I plagiarized ... er I mean ... stole it!

Thanks

[MoNsTeR]

The relevant rule would seem to be 6.2.5.1:

However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other

requirements of a declared Division during a course of fire, the

competitor will be placed in Open Division, if available, other-

wise the competitor will shoot the match for no score.

I think the key word is "placed". If you get bumped to Open, it's not like you're being sent back to the stats shed to re-register for the match, you are being placed in Open division. To me this says you don't even have the opportunity to re-declare your power factor. Your sign up sheet says Production/Minor. 6.2.5.1 provides the basis for striking out Production and substituting Open, but nowhere can I find a justification for allowing a change of power factor (in the absence of a chrono test). So even if it were in no doubt whatsoever that the competitors ammo did in fact make Major, such a fact would be irrelevant.

[Gary Stevens]

I have to respectfully disagree with Troy on this one. I can see another RMI rule discussion coming up shortly.

While it is true that the PF in Produciton is assigned by default, IMO he accepted it when he signed up for Production. When he fired that first shot he was defacto minor. Just clicking your heels three times and saying "I'm not minor anymore" isn't going to get it with me.

Of course I'm getting cranky in my old age

[steel1212]

I have to respectfully disagree with Troy on this one. I can see another RMI rule discussion coming up shortly.

While it is true that the PF in Produciton is assigned by default, IMO he accepted it when he signed up for Production. When he fired that first shot he was defacto minor. Just clicking your heels three times and saying "I'm not minor anymore" isn't going to get it with me.

Of course I'm getting cranky in my old age

I guess that is why me and Gary get along....I'm not old....just cranky I see Troy's point but if you have already shot one shot in production you have declared yourself minor. So now your saying that because you got bumped to open your ammo is major. Now we already went through how this could work, as you can shoot major PF ammo in production just scored minor, but it just doesn't make sense that anybody would do that unless they are shooting 357 sig or .40.

To Bobby's post with the rules stating that a declared power factor can't be challenge with out a chrono...I can see that, we can't ask a competitor to pack around a chrono to prove his point, but upon shooting production he defaulted to minor. In this instance would you allow him to now redeclare since he was defaulted to minor the first time?

[Joe4d]

I have to respectfully disagree with Troy on this one. I can see another RMI rule discussion coming up shortly.

While it is true that the PF in Produciton is assigned by default, IMO he accepted it when he signed up for Production. When he fired that first shot he was defacto minor. Just clicking your heels three times and saying "I'm not minor anymore" isn't going to get it with me.

Of course I'm getting cranky in my old age

I dont see how the rules support that. The rules clearly say that unless every one is chronoed you have to take his word for it. By entering production he didnt declare anything, he also isnt changing anything. The only reason this discussion has got this far is the fact people are assuming his 9mm isnt major. This game isnt about assumptions. Its about rules. What if the guy was shooting a Production gun with .40 S&W factory ammo ? Almost all .40 ammo makes major.

The only thing the rules say is that we have to take his word for it. Our opinions, feelings, and assumptions about his ammo are irrelevant. We can change a rule but until the rule is changed we have to follow the rules as written.

[Gary Stevens]

In the absence of clear guidance (rules) we are forced to use our good judgment and hopefully common sense.

The rulebook cannot cover every possible thing that could happen on the range, therefore we have to sometimes make a decision and live with it.

The beauty of our sport, as opposed to some others, is we have a way to address issues where conflict can't be resolved. If the shooter does not agree, they are free to file an arbitration. In many cases where the water is somewhat muddy, the fee is waived and it can proceed directly to the committee.

Gary

Edited July 16, 2009 by Gary Stevens

[Paul Santiago]

I have to respectfully disagree with Troy on this one. I can see another RMI rule discussion coming up shortly.

While it is true that the PF in Produciton is assigned by default, IMO he accepted it when he signed up for Production. When he fired that first shot he was defacto minor. Just clicking your heels three times and saying "I'm not minor anymore" isn't going to get it with me.

Of course I'm getting cranky in my old age

Gary,

"What if"... I'm shooting a normal .40 load in Production and get bumped to open? Am I still scored minor because I started in Production?

[eerw]

under some of the logic..

if you signed up for production which is minor and have to shoot minor when bumped to open..why wouldn't you have to keep shooting 10rnds instead of loading your mags to capacity.

already at nationals..shooters have loaded mag up to capacity when bumped to open.

[Gary Stevens]

I understand the argument, but until I am told I am wrong, and that could easily happen, I am going to say that when you fired that first shot in Production you are defacto minor.

Not exactly the same, but somewhat analogous is the chronograph. Once you are chronographed minor, you are always minor. Even if you change guns, with the RM's permission, you are still minor.

I would use that as guidance in this situation. The first shot in Production is minor by default. Too allow a shooter to change that due to being placed in Open because of an equipment issue seems to me to be the wrong approach.

Of cousrse that is why the RM is paid the big bucks to make those decisions. Err.....wait a minute.......

[Gary Stevens]

under some of the logic..

if you signed up for production which is minor and have to shoot minor when bumped to open..why wouldn't you have to keep shooting 10rnds instead of loading your mags to capacity.

already at nationals..shooters have loaded mag up to capacity when bumped to open.

I don't have any problem with that at all.

[wide45]

Does it change if there is a chrono?

Lets say the competitor is shooting a .40 in Production, with factory ammo. His second stage of the day is the chrono, where he makes a power factor of 168, but it's found that his equipment is not Production legal, resulting in a bump to open.

Open Major, or Minor?

[steel1212]

Does it change if there is a chrono?

Lets say the competitor is shooting a .40 in Production, with factory ammo. His second stage of the day is the chrono, where he makes a power factor of 168, but it's found that his equipment is not Production legal, resulting in a bump to open.

Open Major, or Minor?

I think he is now shooting open Major if he declares he wants to well.... declare major and why wouldn't he. You would rechrono a back up gun if allowed to switch right? If that back up gun then went the other way and went minor they would score all your stages minor.

[kgunz11]

I understand the argument, but until I am told I am wrong, and that could easily happen, I am going to say that when you fired that first shot in Production you are defacto minor.

Not exactly the same, but somewhat analogous is the chronograph. Once you are chronographed minor, you are always minor. Even if you change guns, with the RM's permission, you are still minor.

I would use that as guidance in this situation. The first shot in Production is minor by default. Too allow a shooter to change that due to being placed in Open because of an equipment issue seems to me to be the wrong approach.

Of cousrse that is why the RM is paid the big bucks to make those decisions. Err.....wait a minute.......

5.1.7.3 The competitor’s replacement handgun and its appropriate

ammunition must be chronographed per Rule 5.6, regardless of

whether or not the original handgun was previously tested.

5.1.7.4 If the original handgun/ammunition was not previously tested,

and if the original handgun has already been used on a stage, and

can be safely fired (i.e. the malfunction is not related to an

inability to safely fire the handgun), then the original handgun

and its ammunition supply remain subject to testing.

If a shooter declared Open Major and the original gun was tested and went minor and broke, say the competitor had a cracked chamber and was bleeding off pressure causing his gun to go minor and then finally give up the goose on him (not a hypothetical, I've seen it happen) and he brought in a replacement gun that went Major as it was suppose to with the same match ammo, are you going to score him minor for the rest of the match? If he's at minor now, why take him back to the chrono?

If you chrono with your first gun and have to use a substitute you are required to go to the chrono, so you can shoot Major the first time around and not be Major for the match, why make someone Minor for the match unless they are shooting in Production?

[mactiger]

Hey, that's OK. I respectfully disagree with myself sometimes.

I see your point, but, (and there's always a but, right?), let's put the 9mm Major thing aside and look at this from a more common point of view. Suppose this competitor was shooting Production division using a .40 with major loads. (Let's say he usually shoots this gun in Limited.) He can "declare" major all he wants, it does him no good, because production is scored minor, period. So, he gets bumped to Open. His ammo now qualifies to make major, his gun fits Open division, he loads his mags to full capacity and says, "this ammo is major, I was just shooting this gun in Production to get classified". In the absence of a chrono, how can you not take his declaration as fact? I don't find any rules to support not taking his declared PF, but then, I don't see any that say he can declare another PF. I just think that because the 9mm major thing was thrown in there it makes us question the competitor's veracity, therefore we want to deny the change. I think it would be legal, though.

And you, cranky? What's the matter, not enough NASCAR on TV for ya?

I have to respectfully disagree with Troy on this one. I can see another RMI rule discussion coming up shortly.

While it is true that the PF in Produciton is assigned by default, IMO he accepted it when he signed up for Production. When he fired that first shot he was defacto minor. Just clicking your heels three times and saying "I'm not minor anymore" isn't going to get it with me.

Of course I'm getting cranky in my old age