A few qestions about open

[ATMester]

Hi Guys,

I have been shooting for some time, currently A class SS and M CDP.

I am playing with the idea to start shooting either open or limited.

I have a few questions, I am totally clueless about open guns.

I wanna keep the cost down (not the initial cost - gun) but brass and bullets.

That's why I like shooting the old .45 cases last forever I can buy cheap bullets etc

So if I got it right I have to use jacketed bullets because of the comp. Can't get away with molly coated bullets?

The cases good for like 4-5 reloads then I have to get new ones. ( I don't like the idea of tracking the number of reloads what a case gets)

What happens if I load it more time (lets assume accidentally)

What's up with these super, super comp, rimless, TJ what are the differences pros and cons?

9mm major only worth it if I can get my hands on free cases.

Any help opinion appreciated Guys,

Edited June 29, 2009 by TheHun

[Jaxshooter]

You can't use moly bullets due to the comp.

The cases will last more than 4-5 loadings depending on the load. You can visually inspect them before loading and throw out the ragged ones.

The difference in price between regular 38 super brass and 38 super comp is not enough to worry about. I would go with super comp, I think they feed better and stack in the mags better. TJ brass is expensive and not much different from SC.

I have 2 Super Comp open guns and 2 9mm Major open guns. They all run 100 % but you will need to have the 9mm built by a gunsmith that is familar with the 9 mm open guns if you want it to run. There are a few smiths that build excellent 9mm guns that will still advise you to stick with 38 super or sc.

This is a very basic reply. If you use the search feature you can find out anything you want to know about open guns.

Good luck! and welcome to the dark side.

[Two Delta]

I strongly disagree. You can shoot molly coated bullets threw an open gun. You will get lead build up in the comp and it can be difficult to clean out. Try using a dull pocket screwdriver just be careful. I due agree that getting a 9mm Major gun to run can be tricky but there are plenty of people out there that know what to due. Good lucky

[Harmon]

supercomp brass lasts until the headstamp is unreadable or primers wont stay in. i have some with 20+ loads at major without fail.

load them till they split or fail to chamber.

9mm 125 FMJ bullets are as cheap as 45 200 grain lead SWC or they used to be.

no need for rifle primers in supercomp, Fed 200s work fine.

you can shoot plain uncoated lead with less buildup in the comp than moly coated bullets(has something to do with wax lubricant used on plain cast) even FMJ bullets leave lead in the comp.

Super is ok, SUper comp and TJ brass is the stuff to use especially if you run a big stick.

there are so many powders to load the super to major...and still quite a few for 9mm major.

shoot a few different open guns and loads before you buy..see if you can borrow guns, ammo and the rig and shoot an entire match. just standing and shooting is different than the dynamic shooting environment a match has.

pick the gun that suites you best and practice like hell.

Harmon

[boz1911]

Good 9mm bullets are very reasonably priced and by far what I would recommend. 9 Major guns set up correctly run as well as any other gun.

[Hi-Power Jack]

Not only FMJ, but advisable to use JHP's,

which cost 7.1 cents each.

Brass doesn't have to be free, but it

is a lot easier to get used 9mm brass

for 2 -4 cents apiece, rather than using

.38 ... for 20 cents each (If you buy

5,000 pieces of brass, it will cost $1000

for new brass, versus $100 for used brass).

The problem with OPEN is not the brass or

the bullets, but the magazines. Apparently

it is trickier to get a 29 round magazine

running 100% than a 10 or 15 round mag.

You'll spend hundreds of dollars or a lot of

time (or both) finding great mags.

NEVER send anyone money who will build

or customize mags for you - it doesn't seem

to work. Get the mags, and then pay for them.

Jack

[XRe]

rather than using

.38 ... for 20 cents each (If you buy

5,000 pieces of brass, it will cost $1000

for new brass, versus $100 for used brass).

I don't know where you're buying brass from, Jack, but you're paying a premium over MSRP. Supercomp is priced at $125/K + shipping from Starline direct, and $123/K shipped from Angus.

I agree with Harmon - my Supercomp brass lasts forever, even more so now that I'm loading N105.

You'll spend hundreds of dollars or a lot of

time (or both) finding great mags.

Or you do what many of us have done, and read on this forum for a short period of time, and tune your own, if they require tuning.

NEVER send anyone money who will build

or customize mags for you - it doesn't seem

to work. Get the mags, and then pay for them.

This just flat out doesn't make any sense to me.

[XRe]

I wanna keep the cost down (not the initial cost - gun) but brass and bullets.

That's why I like shooting the old .45 cases last forever I can buy cheap bullets etc

Even 125gr JHPs are cheaper than .45 bullets, these days, it seems like.

For the moment - ignore cost of brass (you're going to pick it up, right? so it amortizes... hard to put a solid cost on it). I can load and shoot 125gr JHP Supercomp for 9 cents a round using a powder like 4756. With N105, I'm up to 11 cents a round. That's right around the same cost as .45 using moly bullets (based on the Precision Bullet website today).

So if I got it right I have to use jacketed bullets because of the comp. Can't get away with molly coated bullets?

You really don't want to have to be scraping out your comp all the time. JHPs are the way to go. Realize that scraping stuff out of the first chamber risks damaging your barrel crown. Bad juju there. FMJs will leave lead in the comp, as it vaporizes off the rear of the bullet and collects in the comp. JHPs will leave some carbon buildup, but that's easily removed with the help of a carbon remover solution.

The cases good for like 4-5 reloads then I have to get new ones. ( I don't like the idea of tracking the number of reloads what a case gets)

What happens if I load it more time (lets assume accidentally)

What's up with these super, super comp, rimless, TJ what are the differences pros and cons?

In Starline, you've got regular Super, Supercomp, and TJ. There's not a lot of difference between Supercomp and TJ, at this point - but Supercomp has a slightly thicker case web. They're very similar in volume. Any of these three work fine. Regular Super is available from a couple of other vendors. All of this stuff lasts basically forever, seemingly. I've consistently gotten 15+ reloads out of them all, if I didn't lose it first.

I choose to not take brass older than a reloading or two to major matches, but after that, I stop tracking it and it goes in my local/practice bucket.

9mm major only worth it if I can get my hands on free cases.

I would be careful here - if you can guarantee you're getting ahold of once fired brass that's not bulged, you're OK. But I would be very wary about running high pressure loads in brass of unknown age or origin.

[G-ManBart]

9 Major guns set up correctly run as well as any other gun.

Every time I read that I chuckle and recall shooting a major with one of the bigger proponents of 9 Major a while back. Before the match was over he had a primer blowout (once-fired case) that locked up the gun and caused a DNF on a stage. I've never seen or heard about a Super/SC doing that. Open guns are all close to the edge, but 9 Major guns are a little closer it would seem.

For the OP, you didn't say whether you've been able to shoot an Open gun before...that might make a difference to you. I've seen a few folks shoot one and immediately decide it's not for them. They're a bit unpleasant in some ways (blast, noise, snap) and some folks have problems dealing with the additional visual input. There's a lot going on with them.

If you decide to explore Limited I'd suggest getting your hands on a 6" gun before you decide what to buy. R,

[XD Niner]

You've received a ton of good information above. G-Man is right, try shooting one or two before you commit big bucks to an Open gun, magazines and rig. It takes a few sessions to get over the muzzle blast as it sends a definite energy pulse outwards and somewhat back at the shooter. That said, I love to make lots of noise, send out a powerful shock wave and have the dot move very little.

Montana Gold or Zero JHPs in the 124/125 grain size are the most common bullets used. I use IMR 4756 in my 38 Super guns and it works great.

Brass cost is really not different from 9mm Major when you consider the life of the brass. As others have said the 38 Super/SC/TJ brass will last dang near forever. While the 9mm brass is cheaper and sometimes free, its reloading life is very limited.

You can also get pretty good deals on used 38 Super and SC guns. Check the classifieds here or on the USPSA site. About the only real difference is the tuning of the extractor so you can actually use any of these rounds in the same gun by just replacing the extractor.

[RiggerJJ]

I skipped 38, went to 9mm (had my smith convert a 38 super to 9mm) and BOUGHT TUNED mags. never regretted any of those decisions!

jj

[werewolf45auto]

I don't know where you're buying brass from, Jack, but you're paying a premium over MSRP. Supercomp is priced at $125/K + shipping from Starline direct, and $123/K shipped from Angus.

Who, what or where do I find this "Angus" ?

[JThompson]

I don't know where you're buying brass from, Jack, but you're paying a premium over MSRP. Supercomp is priced at $125/K + shipping from Starline direct, and $123/K shipped from Angus.

Who, what or where do I find this "Angus" ?

http://www.ghostholster.com/

[Jaxshooter]

Not to worry if you buy tuned mags from Shooters Connection or HSMITH they will run. You may not need to have them tuned depending on what tubes you buy. I was lucky. I have 8 140mm and 2 170mm mags that hold 25 and 30 respectively. The only one that has been tuned is the 170mm. They are all SV tubes with Gram's springs, followers and base pads.

[werewolf45auto]

I don't know where you're buying brass from, Jack, but you're paying a premium over MSRP. Supercomp is priced at $125/K + shipping from Starline direct, and $123/K shipped from Angus.

Who, what or where do I find this "Angus" ?

http://www.ghostholster.com/

ahh cz custom, I guess I never read the Angus right above it

[XRe]

ahh cz custom, I guess I never read the Angus right above it

[RiggerJJ]

Yea, I shudda mentioned, SV tubes are the only way to go with open 9...

jj

[Fireant]

9 Major guns set up correctly run as well as any other gun.

Every time I read that I chuckle and recall shooting a major with one of the bigger proponents of 9 Major a while back. Before the match was over he had a primer blowout (once-fired case) that locked up the gun and caused a DNF on a stage. I've never seen or heard about a Super/SC doing that. Open guns are all close to the edge, but 9 Major guns are a little closer it would seem.

GMan,

You are kidding right? You have never seen a 38 super blow a case or puke in a match? Or ever seen a 9mm major work for a whole match? If not come on over here, both of my Anglin guns have done nothing but run. I have seen more 40's blow a case than I've ever seen 9 majors. The ranges I practice on I loose most of my brass. When I shoot a match I normally end up on the timer or the palm and loose brass. With 9 major I can go back after the match and get some brass(or not) with no big loss. My match scores have not seemed to have dropped any shooting 9 major either.

[mikeAZ]

Just go 9mm major and forget it!!! I run them long with a decent crimp. The MT gold 121 are very accurate +. I use the Lee "U" dies on all calibers I load.... Pitch ANY S&B brass you find. I use rifle primers generally (also load .223), but can't see any real advantage. Use SVI tubes that are about .355 and you will be fine, the Grams parts are class stuff. I can't see the race for the 30 round mags as your going to have to reload somewhere. I use all 170mm tubes. I think the Lee "U" die is the BEST thing you can use ... BUT, with a Dillon 650 they sling a little powder ( I sold mine and use a 550). I did have 2 case seperations with #7625 and no longer load it to major..I ALWAYS come home with more brass than I shot... I SOLD all my 38 super guns ... Why bother?? There are plenty of powders you can use... HS-6 is fine... What's to worry??? Just finished a 9mm "steel, sighted gun". I think I'll put a 9mm battery in my car???? Years ago... shot the P-9's @ 9x21 but the power factor was 175 and yes.. would get some "loose" primers after awhile... BUT at 165 .. the 9mm is great..I've never had a loose one. (I get 4/6 + pops out of the brass and toss it). THE ONLY glitch I ever had with 9mm is that the ejector needs to be tuned to toss the brass a little more flater.. I solved that occasional glitch by going to a side-mounted C-More on my latest gun, plus it looks cool. AND, I'm only 67 years young.. Mike

Edited July 1, 2009 by mike NM

[G-ManBart]

9 Major guns set up correctly run as well as any other gun.

Every time I read that I chuckle and recall shooting a major with one of the bigger proponents of 9 Major a while back. Before the match was over he had a primer blowout (once-fired case) that locked up the gun and caused a DNF on a stage. I've never seen or heard about a Super/SC doing that. Open guns are all close to the edge, but 9 Major guns are a little closer it would seem.

GMan,

You are kidding right? You have never seen a 38 super blow a case or puke in a match? Or ever seen a 9mm major work for a whole match? If not come on over here, both of my Anglin guns have done nothing but run. I have seen more 40's blow a case than I've ever seen 9 majors. The ranges I practice on I loose most of my brass. When I shoot a match I normally end up on the timer or the palm and loose brass. With 9 major I can go back after the match and get some brass(or not) with no big loss. My match scores have not seemed to have dropped any shooting 9 major either.

Sure, I've seen both Super/SC and most everything else puke at one time or another. What I haven't seen is a Super/SC blow out the primer (completely) and turn the primer pocket into a smoking crater before like that one did. The case didn't blowout in the traditional spot (cutout for the ramp area) and it looked normal until you looked at the primer area. I think it was the primer itself that actually locked the gun up tighter than Dick's hatband. It was really weird, to say the least. I've also never seen a Super/SC create some of the swollen cases that we've seen posted here...they've all been Major 9s. In all the situations like that (at least the ones I recall) the owners sorted it out as some sort of change that pushed their normal load over the limits of what the case can handle. That's anecdotal, of course, but it seems to point to the fact that Major 9 is likely running higher pressures, or the brass isn't quite as capable of handling similar pressures. Either way, I think it's reasonable to say that Major 9 is a little more on the edge of what's safe/reasonable than Super/SC....not a negative thing, just sort of the way it seems to be. R,

[VegasOPM]

Here is my take on Open guns as someone that has recently taken the plunge and doesn't plan on going back. .38SC and 9mm Major are "both pretty"- both can be made to work and the long term brass costs are going to be similar. 9 Major is a little edgier overall, but just take care when loading for it and you will be fine.

Open guns are the Indy Racers of the USPSA world. They are fast and high strung. Parts will wear out and you can't ignore them and expect them to work reliably. That being said, Indy cars can finish a 500 mile race when driven at their limits- so can a well tuned and maintained Open pistol.

The one bit of wisdom that I can give you is to wait until you can afford to get a good gun from a reputable smith. Then use tuned mags and reload for it meticulously. There are a lot of them out there. I have seen more than one shooter try to get into Open "on the cheap" and it rarely ends well.

[CocoBolo]

I have run 2 38SC open guns for 6 months and both run 100% and its no accident. I have a CasePro and run all my brass thru it so I have lots of matches with no malfunctions. I see a lot of problems with folks blowing cheap casess non +P lots of racking of slide and folks that don't clean their mags complaining about salt shaker mags. I will say that shooting Open is much harder than most folks realize, its a big adjustment going to the dot, it takes a lot of dry fire and a lot of dicipline to keep perfect form so you won't be dancing the C-More shuffle.

I have friends with 9 mm major, they went thru the right of passage and got them running, once they are running it is similar to 38 S, however the choice in powders is a shorter list.

I solved the Brass issue by becoming an RO. I came back from Double Tap this year with 2000 pieces of 38 Super, then went to Space City and TX Open etc so while I was shooting lost brass matches I was getting more and more brass. I started with 1000 when I bought the first gun now I have about 6000 pieces plus 500 of he new ones still in the box. I also have a 5 gallon bucket full of 9 mm and lots of 40.

I would have to say that the feel and pluse of a Limited Gun is similar to the Single Stack, I currently have my open guns parked and have started shooting limited again. Since you are an A class SS you should do great in limited, you will just have to break the habbit of reloading everytime you move. You won't need a second gun you can just use you single stack as a spare. You can pick up a used Edge for about $1500 if you like a lite gun and can handle recoil well just have the fat cut off the slide and your ready to go.

Good Luck!