Is this 9mm (Major) ammo okay?

[Hi-Power Jack]

I just shot 29 rounds of a new load for my STI TruBor,

using range brass sorted to WW only, 115 gr JHP

Montana Gold's, 8.3 grains of HS6, seated out to

1.155" OAL (just a little under 1.16").

Before I go up a few grains trying to get the PF up

to 170, can anyone tell me if I'm on the right track?

Accuracy seems good, and they all fed without a problem.

I'm wondering if the extreme range seems a little high?

I don't know how to compute SD and any other statistics

that show if I'm on the right track, or are the velocities

too extreme? They average a PF of 160, but the three

slowest average 155 PF and the three fastest average

a PF of 164.

If there are any mathematicians out there, I'd appreciate

some advice of this.

Here's the velocity of the 29 rounds, in the order they

appeared, thru my Pact chrono:

1377

1383

1388

1384

1381

1389

1354

1399

1387

1404

1361

1376

1388

1408

1351

1396

1382

1415

1413

1447

1404

1392

1407

1390

1403

1418

1402

1416

1385

Low Velocity 1351

High Velocity 1447

Average 1393 fps

Average PF 160.2

Average PF of three slowest cartridges = 1351, 1354, 1361 = 155.9

Average PF of three fastest cartridges = 1447, 1418, 1416 = 164.1

Average PF for all 29 rounds 160.2

Thanks,

Jack

[Franklin D Wolverton]

Considering that the max load for 115 9mm with HS6 is 7.0, not 8.6... wow...

In order to reach major with the 115, you'll need to get to 1425fps...

You may want to try 147's instead to reach major... you only need to push it to 1125 fps...

But even then... the hottest load on the reloading chart is 4.7 of longshot at 1004 fps...

Hmmmm....

This is why I don't shoot 9 Major

Frank

[yoshidaex]

Just a FYI

I use HS6 exclusively in my open guns because it works and I don't mind the filth it creates.

For my 115 grain JHP MG recipe, I use 9.2 grains to get me a PF of 172-174. YMMV

As for your calculations, try entering your numbers into microsoft excel. It will do Standard Deviation and Extreme Spread calculations for you.

[JThompson]

I'd like to see the OAL a bit longer if your chamber/mags will allow it take it to 1.165-.170

You might also try Silhouette... Howard or Matt turned me on to it, can't remember which, but I love the stuff.

JT

[Carlos]

Hi Frank! Many here would tend to disagree.

Your post refers to "max;" I assume you are talking about one of the "published" loads for HS-6. I appreciate the fact that many folks take the published reloading data as the Holy Gospel. However, it is overly simplistic to blindly follow all such data without regard to the reloading company's liability concerns - particularly in the case of 9mm.

We've been over this before, but here goes. The 9mm chambering is OVER 100 years old. That means there are 9mm handguns out there that are more than 100 years old, and some use weak, blow-back designs, like my Astra 600 from 1921. The reloading companies (and the liability lawyers they employ) MUST consider the fact that their published load data must be safe to shoot in the OLDEST gun imaginable with the WEAKEST design and using the WORST brass & reloading practices possible.

Put another way, you can consider most reloading manual's published data to be the equivalent of "9mm Loading for Dummies."

Furthermore, much of the PUBLISHED loading data for 9mm is far under the ACTUAL maximum that a modern gun (like the OP's STI) can withstand using GOOD CONDITION brass. Moreover, one company, Vihta Vouri of Finnland (a country without as many litigation-prone lawyers as we have here in the USA) actually DID publish safe 9mm Major data briefly in the US (google "Jeff Maass reloading" to see older data), and they still do so in other languages in Europe and elsewhere (with warnings like: "use max loads only in modern good condition guns. duh.").

Finally, 9mm and equivalent-OAL 9x21 was previously and safely loaded beyond the OLD max of 175PF, and much of it loaded to the SHORT length of 1.160."

In sum, 165PF 9mm Major at long OALs may have its drawbacks, but safety has NOT proven to be one of them.

As for published data for MODERN loadings such as .40 S&W under 1.160" and .357 Sig - I DO tend to take those as gospel because the chamberings and the guns were developed in the last couple of decades, hence, the data is not "watered down" the way 9mm is.

Regards,

D.

Considering that the max load for 115 9mm with HS6 is 7.0, not 8.6... wow...

In order to reach major with the 115, you'll need to get to 1425fps...

You may want to try 147's instead to reach major... you only need to push it to 1125 fps...

But even then... the hottest load on the reloading chart is 4.7 of longshot at 1004 fps...

Hmmmm....

This is why I don't shoot 9 Major

Frank

[yoshidaex]

Here ya go. Hopefully my Microsoft Excel-Fu is not too weak.

Average 1393

standard deviation 20

Extreme Spread 96

Power Factor 160

Hi 1447

Lo 1351

[CocoBolo]

A while back I was researching Major 9, I found the attached load/chrono sheet from a reliable source.

I've used HS6 on 38SC with 125gr and found it to be a little too harsh for my taste. Plus no one wanted to shoot with me because it was super loud with my GT V8.

Just watch for pressure signs as you increase the load, calculate PF at each level before moving on. If you have reached your goal stop.

[Franklin D Wolverton]

Hi Frank! Many here would tend to disagree.

Your post refers to "max;" I assume you are talking about one of the "published" loads for HS-6. I appreciate the fact that many folks take the published reloading data as the Holy Gospel. However, it is overly simplistic to blindly follow all such data without regard to the reloading company's liability concerns - particularly in the case of 9mm.

Agreed... that's why I said the "I" don't shoot 9 major...

More power to you... i.e. to each their own

Frank

[UW Mitch]

FWIW here's my load:

9Major

Montana Gold 124gr CMJ

7.5gr Sil

1.170" COL

Winchester Small Rifle Primer

This is shot through a 5" JPL gun. At 7.5gr it's was just above the border of making major, so I've moved to 7.7gr, which puts me up a little higher than most people might agree with.

~Mitch

[Hi-Power Jack]

Here ya go. Hopefully my Microsoft Excel-Fu is not too weak.

Average 1393

standard deviation 20

Extreme Spread 96

Power Factor 160

Hi 1447

Lo 1351

How is a Std Dev of 20? Is that too high

to be an accurate load? Am I doing something

wrong in my reloading if the SD is 20?

Thanks,

Jack

[yoshidaex]

In my experinece with HS6 as an 9major powder, its a middle of the board powder IMHO.

Its not too expensive (compared to VV)

it meters good

fairly consistent from lot to lot (compared to IMR 7625)

i can get the amount i need without having to compress the load

I wouldn't worry too much about the SD or ES till youhit the PF you're looking for.

Its possible when you get to the PF of your choice, the SD and/or the ES might be a bit more acceptable to you.

[Flexmoney]

Note: I moved this out of the BEginners section.

This type of data and talk belongs in the main reloading area.

- Admin.

[Kingman]

sd of 20 will be ok.

that can be simple things. Generally HS6 likes pressure. It seems once you hit a major load it gets a bit more consistent with spread

[JThompson]

sd of 20 will be ok.

that can be simple things. Generally HS6 likes pressure. It seems once you hit a major load it gets a bit more consistent with spread

I see that and some greater from using all sorts of dif brass. As the brass gets loaded more times the more I get. It don't matter though, cause it's still accurate as hell for what we do.

[G-ManBart]

Low Velocity 1351

High Velocity 1447

Average 1393 fps

Average PF 160.2

Average PF of three slowest cartridges = 1351, 1354, 1361 = 155.9

Average PF of three fastest cartridges = 1447, 1418, 1416 = 164.1

Average PF for all 29 rounds 160.2

Thanks,

Jack

If you toss that one at 1447 your ES drops to 67 which isn't a terrible number really....not the best, but okay. That one high reading could have been a chrono fluke (lighting?) or it could have been a WW case with a significantly different internal capacity (military brass or 9mm Nato brass is often thicker and has a smaller internal capacity which boosts pressures and velocities). Also, keep in mind that new brass almost always gives the highest velocity. Once-fired is close, but is almost always slightly slower and has a bigger ES and SD (less consistent neck tension since it's been expanded, resized, belled and crimped). Any of those things may have had some impact to the ES you saw. I like doing load development with new brass to establish a baseline and then see what happens with once-fired and multi-fired before adjusting the powder charge. R,

[Kristofer_G]

But even then... the hottest load on the reloading chart is 4.7 of longshot at 1004 fps...

Hmmmm....

This is why I don't shoot 9 Major

Frank

Vihtavouri has published load data for 9x19mm, loaded to 1.142" OAL, with Hornady 147gr XTP using 3N38 powder. Their starting load is 6.3 grains and was good for 1170fps from their 4" test barrel. Their max load is 6.9 grains for 1207fps.

I have personally loaded 6.6gr of 3N38 under Zero 147gr JHPs and got 1180fps from a KKM Glock 34 barrel.

I also loaded Berry's 147s over 6.3 grains. I never chrono'ed these, but they shot very well and were unbelievably clean.

Edited June 30, 2009 by Kristofer_G

[boz1911]

The info posted here for HS-6 does appear very accurate. I get 173PF from 8.4 grains behind 124 grain Montana Golds. I use a 1.180 COL.

[RiggerJJ]

hi-pow jack,

try 124/125 gn bullets (I use MG 124 CMJ) with 8.0-3 gn HS6, I think you will like them a bit better than the 115s. (I tried 115s and found them harsh compared to 124s) try a bit longer too if you are having ANY feed problems (which you can do with 124/125s), out to a max of about 1.170 - 1.175.

my recipe in a standard length STI with no pop holes, just a comp, runs like a finely tuned sewing machine;

MG 124 CMJ

8.4 gn HS6

OAL 1.165

mixed brass

170pf

jj

ps; I also down load to 7.4 gn HS6 for a PF of 150 for minor loads and 3 gun loads.

[Hi-Power Jack]

hi-pow jack,

try 124/125 gn bullets (I use MG 124 CMJ) with 8.0-3 gn HS6, I think you will like them a bit better than the 115s. (I tried 115s and found them harsh compared to 124s) try a bit longer too if you are having ANY feed problems (which you can do with 124/125s), out to a max of about 1.170 - 1.175.

Thanks, but I just rec'd a boatload of MG 115 gr JHP's,

so I'll be using them up as soon as my primers

arrive???

I thought that the higher velocity of the 115's would "make

the comp work better?"???

Jack

[RiggerJJ]

Thanks, but I just rec'd a boatload of MG 115 gr JHP's,

so I'll be using them up as soon as my primers

arrive???

I thought that the higher velocity of the 115's would "make

the comp work better?"???

Jack

the higher velocity thing is true, to a point. you are using a good slow powder that will give you plenty of gas for the comp with 124s. I experimented with 115s and 124s and found the 124s "felt" better. I used to shoot a lot of open 40, and found the same to be true for 135s, which were just too harsh compared to 155s. and the longer bullet (124s) makes it easier to experiment with overall length that works the best for your gun as well. as in all of this stuff, YMMV...some people like 115s, some like 124s. best to try em both and make your own decision.

jj

[SLM]

When I'm forced to burn HS-6 (I much prefer Silhouette) I load:

8.75 grains under MG 115's at a COAL of 1.175". Out of a 5.4" KKM 1:32 twist barrel with no holes that gets me a 174PF. 8.4 grains with all else the same goes 165.8PF.

In my 5" Kart barreled gun with two small holes it takes 9.0 grains to get 166.5PF with the same length and bullet.

[the duck of death]

This may not help since I shoot a G34, but I load 8.2 HS-6/WSP/MG121IFP/OAL 1.145/any case. It tracks well, burns clean and shows no signs of excessive pressure.

HS-6 is a safe linear powder. I've also used Silhouette w/success.