Single Stack Vs. Wide Body

[Bucky]

Besides capacity, is there an advantage. IMO, no.

[uscbigdawg]

Twice as many bullets = Advantage.

[j1b]

Pluses and minuses to both.

The Double wide is easier to load - no doubt.

Single stack feels better to me. I consider that a distinct advantage - I just need to practice my reloads!

JB

[kimel]

For me the double-stack means I can shoot 300+ rounds and my right hand won't be screaming in pain. I love single stacks too and enjoy shooting them. But, after 100 rounds or so in a single-stack my right hand is screaming. I shot wayyy too much full house 44 mag at silhouette targets 20 years ago and did some damage to my hand, apparently, so now it is a wide body for me for competition. I carry a single-stack and shoot it on a regular basis, at least 100 rounds a month.

I do think that the wider magwell does make a small difference. I have a Dawson Ice on my Para and other than loading a finger+mag a couple times (not recommended) it is a breeze to get the reload into fairly quickly. That being said, I shoot with some single stack guys that can do reloads much faster than I can. It is probably more about practice than anything else.

FWIW...I am currently only classified in L10 (C-class). My Limited classification is coming someday when the classifiers I have shot (9 so far) get posted. I didn't have the $$$ for hi-caps when I bought my Para so I stuck with the 10 rounders. I still use them for steel matches and for Barney bullet mags.

[SmittyFL]

I feel the wide body has an advantage, obviously it is much easier to load. Also I feel the recoil control is much better with a wide body. I shoot a Kimber SS in .45 and an STI Edge w/ full dustcover in .40. Through feel and backed up by watching video, the recoil is without a doubt less with the STI for me.

Just my opinion Bucky.

[tightloop]

SmittyFL

How does a polymer framed pistol recoil less than a steel one, assuming the top ends are similar, and with a similar number of rounds in the mag?

Probably the wide body gun is very slightly faster to reload, if you aren't 100% on your game. I think it is a toss up if you are on your game.

Depending on your division, and caliber, IMO there is no advantage other than round count. That said, more rounds is a BIG factor in some courses of fire, regardless of division.

[Ron Ankeny]

This sure has been discussed a lot. I believe the speed advantage goes to the fat gun because of the reload advantage. I prefer the ergonomics of the single stack. The best of both worlds is perhaps the Caspian race ready frame, but that frame doesn't seem to be very popular.

I have heard several people state that there is no physical or mechanical advantage to a wide pistol and the reloading advantage is only a mental or perceived advantage. Still, I have never met a shooter (including a few GM shooters) who can consistently and reliably reload a single stack as fast as a wide body. In reality, I would imagine the only time the reloading advantage would make a big difference would be in standard exercises, speed shoots, and classifiers.

[spook]

I would also not underestimate the difference between reloading with a mag loaded to full capacity (SS) and a mag loaded to half capacity (Fat Gun).

[Chuck D]

It's obvious...the larger the magwell, the less greater the opportunity for making a mistake during mag insertion.

For me personally, the wide body frame fits my "paws" better. The SS is my favorite pistol BUT the SS has the ability to shift around in my palms a bit too much regardless of the type of grips.

That's not to say you can't be successful with a SS. I made Limited Master with my 20 plus year old Gold Cup.

[tightloop]

Chuck

You did mean making Master in Limited Div, didn't you?

[Bucky]

These are all good responses. Just a couple of notes:

We are talking L-10, so capacity wouldn't be an advantage. (Although the point about seating a half full mag IS valid.)

Is the recoil difference because most of us have experience with Single Stack .45s vs .40 Widebodies?

As for the mag well, has anyone seen the Single Stack SV magwell? Sure makes the reload a lot easier than your traditional Wilson or S&A.

Also, when we talk wide body are we mostly thinking of S_I? Paras aren't that much easier to reload than Single Stacks, IMO.

[uscbigdawg]

Hi Bucky,

Since we're only talking L10, I know for many, the splits are faster. For me this is the case, due to the smaller grip and can capture more of the gun and control recoil better.

As for reloading faster. The hi-caps are on average better, but don't forget that Robbie won the 1994 Limited Nationals with a single stack. The kicker to this is that Arnt Myre (spelling) finished second (and I think Jack Barnes finished 4th or 5th). All used single stacks against hi-cap frames (Paras, McCormick's, etc.).

I have a friend that shoots in Oregon and he asked me, what gun would I shoot, dollars aside for L10 and Limited. He wanted a complete gun (i.e. non-gunsmith) so I suggested the STI Edge w/ the single stack grip (they do make one). He can switch grips, one load, etc. But it's a Limited gun, in .40, set up for L10. You can run SVI, S & A, etc. magwell and are rollin'.

Just some thoughts.

In the end, it comes down to personal preference for L10. Although, there is a rumor that L10 will go single stack only.

[TriggerT]

The wide body is easier to reload, BUT I like the single stack a lot more. Just fits my hand better. I took a couple of months off from L-10 last year to shoot limited, and when I went back to my single stack the difference was more apparent than ever. It was like going home.

Not to compair myself to TGO (cause it ain't ever going to be even close), but he has said that a single stack fits his hand better as well.

I also just hate banging up my high cap mags unless I am shooting limited. Single stack ones are a lot less $.

[mike4045]

The SS gun fits me better. That's the only adv. for me. Reloads are the same for me. I would probably be faster with the SS, but I never put a magwell on it. I have not really noticed much diff for me in recoil.

Mike

[schoonie]

I shoot a Goldcup 45 single stack and a 40 cal Infinity SV. There is a world of difference in the mag changes! The difference occurs when you preform a less than 'perfect' mag change. The double stack mag is necked down to single stack proportions yet it is inserted into a double stack size hole in the gun. Consequently, there is much more room for error in alignment of the mag to the gun. When both mag changes are perfect the apparent difference between the two is greatly diminished. It sometimes feels as if I can throw the high cap mag up into gun. I never get this feel with a single stack mag.

I guess the conclussion is that the difference between the mag changes is relative to the proficiency and skill of the changer.

[MoNsTeR]

Not only are reloads faster because of the huge opening, they're more certain since you can use mags that aren't full. It's a lot easier to rapidly and surely seat an 18 round mag with 10 rounds in it than a 10 rounder with 10 rounds in it.

Of course, single stacks have an advantage in that they don't have to cost $1600 and the mags are only $15-$25. That may not matter to TGO but it sure as hell matters to Joe Q. C-class.

I also wonder how apples-to-apples some of our comparisons are. Taking a guess, I'd say most of the widebody guns are STI Edge-style .40's i.e. long dustcover + bull barrel, while the single stacks are basic .45 government models with bushing barrels and steel guide rods. The single stack might indeed have an advantage absorbing recoil if it were a Springfield Operator, Baer Monolith, or long dustcover Infinity with a bull barrel and tungsten guide rod, all the better if it were a .40.

[j1b]

I would guess, based on the responses in this thread, that it is truly up to you. Big Dawg is right, back in 94' and 95' we shot singlestacks at the nationals. Actually - we shot single stack .45's with Wilson 10 rounders.

I can say it was challenging, the capacity did present issues in one or two circumstances. Since you are talking limited 10, this would go away.

I personally shoot a single stack better. For some reason I am either more confident with them, or something about them allows me to shoot better. I've shot a ton of double stacks and none of them quite feel like a single stack.

I would admit that reloading a single stack is harder to do consistently fast. You can reload both guns as quickly, just harder to do with consistency in a single stack. That said, a little practice virtually eliminates this advantage and like Bid Dawg said - TGO has won his fair share of matches shooting a SS against hi-caps.

All depends on you and what you prefer. Looks like you are going to get a bunch of different opinions.

JB

[SmittyFL]

TL,

I'm not sure. I've discussed recoil difference between a SS .45 and S_I .40 with a shooting buddy at length. And basically we didn't come up with a good answer. Power factor, kinetic energy, size and weight of gun, etc. all come into play somehow. I imagine the full dustcover of the STI plays a bigger part than the polymer grip.

The bottom line is I've shot a lot of .45 through my SS and a lot of .40 thorugh my STI and there is no quesiton the recoil is less with the STI for me. As I said I can feel it and I've seen it on video. Don't get me wrong I LOVE shooting the SS, it feels good, fits me well, and is a blast to shoot. But the STI is way easier to shoot, control recoil, and reload (for me)

I would be curious as to the opinion of others who own and shoot both a SS in .45 and an S_I in .40.

[sfinney]

I shoot a single stack .45 in Lim-10, and a STI short dustcover .40 in Limited. I've also shot a .40 cal SS.

Besides capacity, as has been said, the S_I polymer frame guns have less percieved felt recoil (for me). I suspect it has to do with spreading the forces of recoil over a larger square surface, giving more leverage, and the shock of the recoil (and firing of the round itself) not being transmitted as directly or efficiently to your hands as a steel frame would conduct.

As an average shooter, who doesn't practice enough, it is a HUGE advantage to me to shoot the S_I gun over a SS. My reloads are fast but sloppy, and a SS causes me to miss ENTIRELY to many mag changes.

In fact, I 've been considering being more of a gamer and shooting my STI in Lim-10 to improve my mag change times, with downloaded mags. (and I only shoot Lim-10 occasionally, anyway)

I know, I know, I should practice my mag changes on the SS more, but I'm lazy. I'm going to take the easy way out unless you can show me how the SS would give an advantage, without having to practice more, all things being equal.

Of course, next month, I have a Single Stack match, and I'll get blown away by all those people who DID practice SS mag changes..... but I'll have fun anyway

[Guest Larry Cazes]

I shoot both a Para P14 and a Valtro .45 SS in L10. I find that the Para grip fills my hand better and I am able to consistently get a better grip on the gun on draws as well as when shifting my grip to drop a mag during a reload. I don't find that I am handicapped at all by the SS during reloads, though. I have an S&A magwell on the SS and missed reloads are rare. Ergonomics aside, I think the perception of an advantage during reloads for the DS is bull!

[Mistral404]

I basically started out in this sport a couple years ago with a STI Trojan .45. Learned to do my reloads. I enjoyed shooting it very much.

I recently started shooting a STI Edge in .40. Reloads are not a big deal, since the are so infrequent. I am just starting to learn how to shot it faster.

I shoot on Tuesday Night Steel. I typically shoot are the medium whether it is the single stack or double stack.

But my hands really appreciate the extended dust cover .40. The recoil is a lot easier on my aged hands.

So the advantage to me is it is easier and more enjoyable to shoot. I believe my scores will improve with the double stack.

[eric nielsen]

I think the mag change advantage with a doublestack is real, not just perceived. There's 3 things you can get wrong on a reload - the widebody gives you a huge margin for error on at least one of those.

The easiest way to visualize it is from the gun's point of view, rather than the mag's POV. Assume the mag is always perfect, you're rt-handed:

1. You can mess up the alignment by pointing the muzzle too or too low.

2. You can roll the sights over to your right too much or too little.

3. You can twist the muzzle too far left or too far right.

It's this last part, twist, that needs to be almost perfect with a single-stack. Not with a double-stack. You can be off 5-10 degrees and the magwell will just straigten it out for you. #2, roll, can also be a little off, but that's true for a singlestack if it has a really cavernous magwell.

dvc - eric - a28026

PS - a 10-round factory Glock mag is a pain to seat, only the hi-price hi-cap mag is easy to seat with 10.

[oddjob]

Having shot L-10 with a SV (.40) and a SS (.45) here's my take:

More efficient to shoot the SV in L-10.

More FUN to shoot the SS in L-10 (especially against the wide bodies).

I now shoot the SS in L-10 and leave the SV for limited. The SS is too much fun for me to shoot the SV in L-10.

I think the SV is easier to reload. My 17 yr old son wanted to try some reloads with the SS (he shoots open). His reloads with the SS was just as fast as the wide bodies. Practice, practice, practice.........

[bountyhunter]

The larger grip is better for control, especially if you have long fingers. I put the "wide body adapter" on the grips of my single stacks to increase their grip radius.

[Jake Di Vita]

A single stack is a lot more comforatable for me to shoot. Wide body guns, although it is easier to insert a new mag, cause me to usually have to shift my grip to eject it.

Personal preference: SS.