Bucky Posted October 6, 2003 Share Posted October 6, 2003 BJ: You make a good point about the people milking L-10. The problem is that, while I agree L-10 is an important division and should remain, I don't think we should have seperate classifications. If someone is A class Limited, they shouldn't be B class L-10. (We know who I'm talkin' 'bout ). As for the comment that MOST who shoot L-10 do so with a single stack, that has not been what I have seen. Some things I've seen have been H&K USPs in .45 that didn't want to shoot Production and be scored minor. I've seen the same with Glock .45s as well. I've seen some Para .45s too, as well as a Para .40 by someone who can not (and chooses not to) own mags that are "highly frowned upon" in one of them Socialist States. Oh, yeah one more: me occasionally with my Beretta Elite II during IDPA season, because USPSA ruling of the Langdon speed bump trigger and Burner grips not allowed in production. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Larry Cazes Posted October 6, 2003 Share Posted October 6, 2003 Lately, I shoot L10 with a Para P14 because the grip fills my big hands better and makes the gun easier to shoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timberbeast Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 I have shot the same single stack Springfield .45 since starting this game in 1989. I liked the old days when we just all shot against everyone... then stock gun class...it was a mess, never really knew if your stuff was legal or not... then limited (I STILL hate that name!!!) Now Lim10 works for me... if they change it at all from what it is now, I will shoot limited with my singlestack, quit paying dues to USPSA, and never shoot or work a major match as an RO again... No compromise on that from me.... i use a milt sparks BN55 and carry type mag pouches but if USPSA or IPSC thinks they can tell me how to wear my gear, or what grear to use, then screw them... the thing about this thread that gets me is that it seems to me the folks that want to change lim 10 do not shoot it or are folks that shoot all division and are looking for a way to win yet another division… if the BOD wants to change lim 10 purpose the changes an then let only folks classified in lim 10 vote yay or nay on the changes. Now, I’ll admit that I’m a C class shooter and most likely will never make B due to age and physical handicap, so I’m not in danger of winning anything. Still my impression is that the game is better now than in the early 90’s when the rule’s and gun requirements were written in sand and the wind blew all the time. As long as I'm venting I'll add that what IPSC does means nothing at all to me... USPSA is the game they should play it our way... bet i did not make friends with that one... DVC Sam Johnsen A14900 RO Stage 6 2003 USPSA Nationals Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmittyFL Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 Ok, Don't anyone shoot me, I really would like answers to these points so I understand better where everyone is coming from. A couple of points I've had on the L-10 issue haven't been answered. Why not make L-10 a single stack only division? Here's why, and what I would like opinions on. 1) Glocks, Sigs, HK's, etc. can shoot Production or Limited 2) If you're shooitng an STI downloaded you can shoot Limited A) If you live in a restricted state then everybody is L-10 Around here (FL) the L-10 shooters seem to either shoot a full house S_I downloaded or a single stack. I don't feel Single Stack's are competitive against the S_I's. It seems to me that the single stack is the only gun without a place to play anymore. I don't think we should get rid of L-10 or combine it with Limited. It most certainly has brought in new shooters. Either don't change it at all or make it SS. So what is the reason, is it so the restricted state folks can shoot their S_I's at a major match without buying new mags for Limited? That's the only good argument I can see for keeping it like it is? Don't get PO'ed, I'm just looking for answers. Have a great day!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 Smitty, Give me your address and I'll send you my Kevlar, my Nomex and my Nikes. If the first two don't work, try the third Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck D Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 Smitty...you answered your own question. Magazine availability/legality is the answer. L10 is for 10 round only guys, it was NEVER meant to be an affirmative action program for SS guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 Smitty, I live in New Jersey where pre-ban mags are limited to 15 rounds ---- so if you can find the right gun, and can afford to buy 4 or 5 preban high caps, then you can shoot limited with an advantage over ten round shooters. Our mag cap law predates the 1994 crime bill..... You're right that double stack Glocks and H&Ks could play in Production and Limited --- but if the person driving the gun lacks the funds to buy pre-ban mags, they play at a disadvantage in Limited. Shooting a .45 in Production presents a similar handicap.... What I like about the divisions as they stand now is that they offer a place for virtually everyone to play without them needing to buy equipment just to play the game.... And I think it's in our best interest to make the game appealing to the new shooters who show up... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bucky Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 1) Glocks, Sigs, HK's, etc. can shoot Production or Limited Glock .45s and HKs with high caps are only getting 13, which is not competitive with Limited 20... not to mention they are very scarce and expensive. Shooting .45 minor is also a severe handicap. They do have a nice place in L-10 and I've seen quite a bit of entry with these in this division. 2) If you're shooitng an STI downloaded you can shoot Limited Only because of the availability of "non crippled" mags. But what if I want to become a manufacturer tomorrow and create my own style wide body? The only high capacity magazines available will be LEO magazines. Why should I be pushed out of a competitive niche? A) If you live in a restricted state then everybody is L-10 OH CONTRARE! New Jersey has a 15 round limit. However, law enforcement are exempt and FFL holders are exempt and others just choose to be "exempt" and USPSA doesn't allow us to say no more than 15 in the magazine to be fair to law abiding citizens. Around here (FL) the L-10 shooters seem to either shoot a full house S_I downloaded or a single stack. I don't feel Single Stack's are competitive against the S_I's. It seems to me that the single stack is the only gun without a place to play anymore. I for the life of me cannot understand why so many people feel there is that big a difference to shooting a single stack against a wide body once the mag is capped at 10 rounds. I do have a theory, though. Many people have single stacks that have been hand smithed and passed around a bit and chinced ($$$) on. On the other hand, many of the wide body guns have had more care and $$$ put into them. If you make that comparison, then yes there is a difference. I had a chance handle an SVI single stack .40 that I am told Kurt Gaskill shot at the 2002 Factory Gun Nationals in L-10. What a beautiful piece. Given the choice, I'd run that in L-10 before I'd run any wide body that I've seen to date. 1. The Grip is better for me. 2. Single Stacks are easier to make lock the slide open on the last round. 3. Single Stacks are easy to make go "Auto Forward". IE the slide closes Automatically when you slam a full mag in. Where is the disadvantage??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmittyFL Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 Thanks for the offer Vince, I was going to take you up on it but thus far it hasn't been to bad. Chucky, Nik, Bucky, Thanks, that was the answers I was looking for. I didn't realize L-10 was supported mainly due to the restrictive states. I will leave you L-10 guys alone now. I don't buy the SS is as fast as a wide body thing, but that's a different topic. Thanks for the replies and for not 'beatin me down' to bad Smitty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bucky Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 Smitty, I don't buy the SS is as fast as a wide body thing, but that's a different topic. I'd love to know what you feel is faster about the wide body. Your right, too, that it's a different topic so I started a POLL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IPSCDRL Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 Well, I read the previous posts before voting but ended up voting the same as 70 somthing percent of the respondents. I say leave well enough alone. NO need to change the divisions that I can see. Does someone have a GOOD reason to change them? I'd be willing to listen. BTW this response has nothing to do with the fact that I just had an expensive single stack 1911 built. I used to run my G-21 in L-10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bucky Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 BTW this response has nothing to do with the fact that I just had an expensive single stack 1911 built. Actually, I think it is an admirable choice AFTER having a single stack built. You're saying that your not afraid of no Wide Body downloaded to 10 rounds and you don't need no stinkin' special SS division to compete! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFD Posted October 11, 2003 Share Posted October 11, 2003 I love SS 1911s more than almost anything, but I don't want L-10 to be a "SS Only" division. I believe that skill beats equipment, and if I can actually get my skill to the point where only my SS is holding me back, then I'll be more than happy to buy a widebody in order to advance further. (Now I have to pause as the thought that my skill level will ever get that good has caused quite a bit of unrestrained laughter here at the keyboard) Don't put me in any category with SS shooters who think they need to be "saved" from the widebody shooters. Of course no SS shooters I know feel that way anyway. I think the SS 1911's tombstone can be kept in storage for a little while longer. I'm happy to see how the poll results are turning out. Any talk of ruining L-10 gets me overly upset, so now maybe I can relax a bit knowing that most people have good sense. I'm starting to see IDPA shooters (who have never shot USPSA) come to my USPSA matches. The numbers are small right now, but I feel they will grow. Their #1 reason for leaving IDPA: "All the stupid freaking rules" (roughly translated). Production division makes my stomach turn for the exact same reason. I'd personally rather see folks attracted to USPSA because of the differences between it and IDPA rather than because we've recreated IDPA with new rules that restrict our member's freedom. My idea of perfect freedom is what we have right now. The only thing I'd change would be to get rid of the holster/mag pouch restrictions (our "stupid freaking rules" IMHO) in Production to give those guys a taste of freedom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimel Posted October 11, 2003 Share Posted October 11, 2003 This has been a fascinating thread and it is interesting to see how things are turning out in this poll. However what we all really need to do is to write USPSA Pres Michael Voigt and your Area Director and let them know how you feel too. Yes, many if not all the ADs browse this board and maybe Pres Voigt does too but there is nothing like a personal note/email to help reinforce your opinions. USPSA Staff with email links If we don't tell them how we feel they will just make a guess and that is not what we want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TriggerT Posted October 13, 2003 Share Posted October 13, 2003 Interesting thread. Please leave L-10 Alone. I shoot both L-10 and Limited, and even though I know the wide body is easier to reload, I shoot the single stack better. Everytime I take some time off from my single stack, and then go back to it, it is like going home. The gun just FEELS better than anything else I own. As far as the holster requirment, that would really pi$$ me off. I have a full length, heavy, dust cover on my single stack, and I don't know of any non-race holster that would work with it. (And I finially got my draw to be under 1.5 on a semi regular basis) L-10 has been the most popular division at most of the matches I have shot at in the past few months, including WI state. That alone should say something about how bad of an idea it would be to make changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfinney Posted October 14, 2003 Share Posted October 14, 2003 Open Limited Production - Double/Safe Action Production - Single Action (in place of Lim-10, Prod rules for SA guns ) Revolver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diehli Posted October 14, 2003 Share Posted October 14, 2003 Open: leave it alone Limited/Standard: leave it alone. Change IPSC rules to USPSA rules... ditch that darned box. Production: change IPSC rules to USPSA rules WRT sight modifications, trigger modifications, and holster requirements. If/when the magazine ban sunsets, THEN figure out what to do with the 10-round limitation in USPSA. Production should be a place where people with a little bit of money to spend can have some fun with their gun (We Americans love to tinker). If a $500 gun is what's allowed, why should a $200 holster be allowed. The holsters should be duty type as should the magazine holders. The placement of the holster should be the only thing that is dictated. Limited-10: Leave as is until the magazine ban, then figure out what to do with it. Potentially have it as a 10-round limit division with open and limited categories. After the mag ban sunset, it should be a place for single stacks to play, but if people don't have the money to invest in new mags, they shouldn't be excluded. Revolver: Should have production, limited, and open categories. Production is six rounds with no modifications (no grip, sight, or action mods). Limited allows 8-rounds (there isn't a .355 or greater frame that allows any more than that, as far as I know) and sight, action, and grip mods are allowed. Open allows comps and red-dot sights... competitors can also prototype things (such as using the new X-frame and converting it to a .355 or greater caliber). Women and children should be allowed to shoot the courses of fire at both club and major matches for fun using .22 pistols, but no prizes or plaques would be awarded. They'd be scored, as well, but just for their own information. Prices would be reduced, as well. Keep in mind that these are all just MY opinion. I know logistically it would be a pain, but that's something that's worth figuring out for the future of the sport. The more people that are catered to, the better, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook Posted October 14, 2003 Share Posted October 14, 2003 Revolver: Should have production, limited, and open categories. Production is six rounds with no modifications (no grip, sight, or action mods). Limited allows 8-rounds (there isn't a .355 or greater frame that allows any more than that, as far as I know) and sight, action, and grip mods are allowed. Open allows comps and red-dot sights... competitors can also prototype things (such as using the new X-frame and converting it to a .355 or greater caliber). I think that this will lead to an even more scattered revolver division. Now, there are 25 guys showing up at the world shoot. With revo divided into three divisions...well, you can figure that out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diehli Posted October 15, 2003 Share Posted October 15, 2003 Heh! Spook, notice my disclaimer. You're probably right, but I'm sorta playing devil's advocate in some of my suggestions. I really don't know what, if anything, should happen with revolver, but it seems that some guys are being left out (or made to compete with dot-sighted, 30-round-holding, uber-quick guns when all they have against them is 7-rounds in their .357 mag, iron-sighted revolver... you get what I'm saying?). There's only one thing I know for sure: I don't know much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oddjob Posted October 15, 2003 Share Posted October 15, 2003 Leave L-10 alone.................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook Posted October 16, 2003 Share Posted October 16, 2003 Gorilla, you're right. There will aways be guys 'n guns that will be left out. Though I must say that, as soon as fundings permit, I'm going to compete in open with a c-more sighted comped and hybrid 8 shot .38 super revolver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOtherErik Posted October 20, 2003 Share Posted October 20, 2003 I got a late start in this topic but ....IMHO L10 should become singlestack with no other change to rules regarding equipment. Production should be as it is but with major scoring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFD Posted October 20, 2003 Share Posted October 20, 2003 kimel Thanks for the link and for spreading the idea of letting our reps know how we feel. I've e-mailed Michael Voigt and my area 6 director, and had earlier e-mailed my section rep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck D Posted October 21, 2003 Share Posted October 21, 2003 I can't lie....I ALMOST wish USPSA would do something as stupid as changing L10 division like making it a Single Stack division. The uproar would mirror the Los Angeles riots...sans the violence. Tell ya another thing...I'd lead the charge towards a "class action lawsuit" to recoup my losses (live in a ten round only state...hi-cap mags for my SV are NOT an option). Using the award a woman recieved from burning herself on a hot cup of coffee from McDonalds as a guide....my SV (non single stack) blaster may be worth a small fortune in the scheme of things.... STI/SV/PARA/GLOCK etc...owners unite..... Keep L10 open for everybody !!!!!!! disclaimer: yes the above response does sound crazy....but then again so does the theory that we should change L10 division in a sport that's "bleeding" membership the way it is partially due to the fact that the rules never remain "stable" for a measurable period of time. Think about it.... Yours truly....the "unknown" attorney. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 21, 2003 Share Posted October 21, 2003 Any takers for my idea of making L10 "Glock Only" ??? (Har-d-har-har ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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