Primers: Are They Different?

[Venezuela]

I've been using Winchester and Federal small pistol primers.

I recently had trouble with my Beretta 92 and a friend suggested that my loads might be too hot and that I needed to take into account the primer I was using.

I looked at the boxes of the Winchester and Federal small pistol primers and could find no information on them that might suggest that one is "hotter" than the other.

What's the difference between small pistol primers? Is there information available? Does the brand really matter?

There´s a thread at:

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.phpa...&f=4&t=7482&hl=

However, this thread does'nt answer my questions: Am I going to get different results? Pressure? Velocity?

[redmercury2]

primer hardness varies from brand to brand and frequently from lot to lot.primer compound formulas also differ. load pressures and performance may measureably vary with different brands and lots.-what probs are you attributing to the primers?

[Venezuela]

I am not taking primers into account in my formula.

Example: I'm loading 9 mm, 135 gr. LRN (linotype), OAL: 1.120 with 3.6 gr. Titegroup with Winchester OR Federal small pistol primers. My question is: Are the primers going to make a difference?

[redmercury2]

yes prmers may make a difference. check same load with diff.brands of primers and look for pressure signs,i.e. primer flattening ,gas blowby,any indication of significant deformatio of the primer during firing. this will obviously indicate pressure problems which may be due to primer or powder or chamber dimensions,brass overall length of cartidge or a host of other issues or combination thereof. realistically there is no simple answer. watch those pressur signs......!!!!!!

[Doggorloader]

Read up in your loading manuals about primers cause they make a difference.

For instance on page 57 Lyman 48th edition they have the results of just changing the brand of primer in a load and they show a pressure spread of 2600 psi comparing five different primers which is substantial variation.

[slughammer]

Primer flatness would only be an indicator within the same brand of primers. Federal have softer cups than Winchester and are therefore preferred by most revolver shooters with trigger jobs.

I use Winchester in 45 acp, I preferred them for loading auto loader rounds where you might run into a crimped pocket every now and then.

I started shooting a 625 and all I had on hand were the Winchester Large pistol (which are marked for standard and magnum loads). A switch to Federal large pisol resulted in a velocity loss, but it also showed about half the extreme spread.

3.6 of Titegroup with a 135 Lead, doesn't sound very hot at all. I was working with 4.0-4.2 trying to come up with a steel load.

[shred]

For "normal" pistol loads, whatever primer fits in the pocket will give you darn-near identical results once it goes pop (I think I got a 1 foot per second difference between small pistol and small rifle primers last I checked). Some primers are easier to make go pop than others. Specialty or super-accurate loads may vary.

[TRG65]

I have tried FSP, FSPM, WSPM, and WSR in my 9mm loads from "coldest to hotest"

FSP

FSPM

WSR

WSPM

There was about 10FPS jump in each. I'm currently loading WSR's if I would switch to FSP's I would expect to lose 10-30 fps on average.

I don't remember if I've checked WSP's, I don't have access to my load book currently.

[Jon Merricks]

My first question is what kind of problems with your 92?

Here are some other threads that will give you some information about primers.

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...7482&hl=primers

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...7039&hl=primers

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...6488&hl=primers

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...5603&hl=primers

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...5570&hl=primers

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...=880&hl=primers

[kurtm]

I don't have the company name available because I checked into this long ago, but there is one company that produces the flat brass alloy sheet that all the primer companies use to stamp out thier primers, and one company only. The "soft" and "hard" myth is spread near and wide. ( we are talking about the US only ). The hard and soft concept came from the amount of "crush" requiered to smash the cup down to the anvil thus inducing ignition. Some companies use a bit less compound than others but anvils are also rather universal. Anothere factor is the "centeredness" ( hey I made up anothere word) of the firing pin strike. The farther from center, the more crush, the "harder" the primer. I think Shred is right on as far as pistol primers are concerned, as they light small amounts of powder. Since they light small amounts, burn rate isn't a real concern like in rifle cartridges. KURT

[eric nielsen]

There is a small difference, I've seen it by tracking it in the past, though only 2 types at a time. Steps of 10fps between brands is very close to what I remember. Some powders, some brass flashholes, will show a bigger difference when you change primers. I like WSR for everything but Glock, where I use FSP. FSP is more of a pain to seat in the case.

Much like using different brands of brass in an otherwise identical load, the primer will pretty much show up ONLY on the chronograph. Not in where your groups go on the target. Not in accuracy, not in felt recoil. An exception would be PMC brass, that stuff is VERY thick and changes a load noticeably. There's probably one or two primers that do that too.

Bear in mind that you want a supply of primers (and every other component) that will be on hand when it's time to load for a tournament. Don't run out to gun stores to get the 400 primers (prolly the wrong brand) they have under the glass, when you normally get them by the thousands somewhere else. Pick one primer and get a LARGE quantity of it, and you won't lose 40 fps or whatever, at the tournament.

dvc - eric - a28026

[Guest Larry Cazes]

I don't have the company name available because I checked into this long ago, but there is one company that produces the flat brass alloy sheet that all the primer companies use to stamp out thier primers, and one company only. The "soft" and "hard" myth is spread near and wide. ( we are talking about the US only ).

Kurtm, this is not quite right because even though all may use the same base sheet material, CCI plates their primers resulting in the silver finish and a definately "harder" primer.

[kurtm]

Icazes:

Good point, all though very miniscule in effect, it does indeed make the primer " harder". I agree with you so don't take the next in any way other than info. In different parts of the country, primers are considered "hard " and "soft". I have been told by knowlegable people that CCI is the hardest and I have been told CCI is one of the softest. This is what started my quest on the hard, soft thing. Using a hardness tester, calibrated in soft sheet brass, I punched Rem, Win, Fed, CCI. They all punched to the same depth within .0001. Next we crushed them in a weight sensing press with out the anvil. They all crushed the same amount, with the same amount of weight, except CCI it was .0013 taller at the same weight. Maybe this was due to the plating or due to the shape of the punch that CCI uses to form the primer cup, I don't know, because at that point I kind of gave up seeings as how they were all about the same. Now it is possible that the sheet alloy that they all use has harder and softer spots, causing some of the "hard" "soft" controversy But I kind of doubt that. KURT

[Flexmoney]

Kurt,

I don't know what goes into the process after they get the raw materials...or if different companies build primer in slightly different ways...I do know that the Federal primers are what goes off in my Glocks (with reduced power striker springs). Of course, the reason they work may be due to the fact that I practically crush the primer to ensure that I seat it below flush. I know that other shooters with similar "striker power" aren't as lucky. Mabye it is their reloading technique, mabye it is the force required to set off the other brands of primers?

[Jack Suber]

I have to agree that some primers are softer than others. Not to long ago, I was testing 40 Cal loads with different primers/powder. One of the loads I tested included Federal small pistol primers. During the primer seating process (Dillon 550), I touched about 3 of them of in a batch of 25. This was an "eye-opening" experience (thank God I was wearing glasses). I was using the same brass from the same batch (all new Winchester). The only cause I can think of is that the primers were getting crushed (maybe on tumbler media debris) and touching off. This has only happened with Federal primers. On the other hand, I have a Ruger Redhawk that has a very nice trigger job. This pistol has a very difficult time setting off CCI primers (most of the time they won't fire). Winchester or Federal, no problem. I also have been led to believe that Small Rifle Primers are harder than small pistol in order to prevent primer flow with the hotter loads. I thought that is why so many IPSC shooters use SRifle primers in their 40 loads. Just my observations.

Jack

[SiG Lady]

I'm currently using both Federal AND Winchester large pistol/magnum primers in my Kimber (.45) and both seem to work fine and reliably IF they're seated thoroughly flush. A slight rise in any of them causes FTFs. I go back and re-seat any that feel lumpy before I take 'em to the range--and if I don't, they just don't fire the first time... sometimes will fire the second time thru but that's a humiliating waste of time during a match!

[ErikW]

In addition to the degree of hardness as it resists ignition from the pin hit, there's another thought on hardness: its resistance to the pressure created after ignition. Anybody who has had to deal with primer flow can tell you that some primers are better than others in this respect.

[Run n Gun]

I came upon some interesting information about rifle primers that MIGHT carry over to pistol primers. Click here.

It seems that the material thickness of small (rifle) primers can vary 24% (.019-.025) and hardness can vary 39% (46,000 psi to 76,000 psi tensile strength) by manufacturer. Apparently all manufactures spec .027 for their material thickness for large rifle primers.

If this holds true for the manufacturing of pistol primers, then it certainly lends credence to the position that there IS a difference in “hardness” between different primer makes.

Ed

[SiG Lady]

...Might also add that the Federal primers (in my system at any rate) take a little harder push to seat them properly. So also sayeth another local friend of mine, according to his experience.

[cr10x]

Please do not "reseat" primers on a loaded round. If done during the regular loading (before powder, bullet seating, etc), that's is one thing.

After --- well you just might be lighting a fuse you don't want to. What you can do is detonate the round without it being in a chamber, and probably right in front of your face.

If you have a primer seating problem, adjust the primer punch, check the shell plate bolt, get different brass, just don't blow your face off.

Helpful hint for the day completed, back to our regularly scheduled programming already in progress.

Cecil

[TBF]

SL,

I have to agree with cr10x, and iv'e seen your pics in the gallery, keep the face as is.

( that's supposed to be a compliment, but sometimes I am so misunderstood... )

I know some loaders reseat primers on loaded rounds on a regular basis, but the thought of the one in a million or whatever going bang gives me the willys.

IMHO Federal primers are softer, easier to crush when seating, and easier to ignite than Winchester and CCI.

Travis F.

[tightloop]

That is what is fine about the Big Dillon's they have a built in swage station. If you load on something smaller like my 550 or a 650, you need to at least segregate your brass into same headstamp lots and load it that way. If you get a lot which need to open up the primer pocket, get your tool from Sinclair and get after it.

That is one of the things I check in my loading journal, what headstamp is being loaded and did I have to work the pockets B4 I loaded them.

Although I have crushed my share of primers, I have never had a Kaboom with them. It does sound prudent not to reseat the primer after you have seated the bullet and crimped it into place.

[Guest Larry Cazes]

Erik, your comment on primer flow is one of the factors that I considered when I made the statement that in my oppinion CCI primer cups are definitely harder than Federal and Winchester. I get more flow and flattening on both federal and winchester than CCI with a stout clays load in .45acp. I also get a shallower strike/indent on CCI and when I have had issues with ignition it has also been with CCI. After reading Kurtm's post, though, I would have to yield to his hardness data which definitely carries more significance than my subjective feel and experience. In the last year I have switched to winchester exclusively because they seem to jam and flip over less in my 550B press.

Larry

[eric nielsen]

Reseating a primer in a loaded round is SUICIDAL. Don't do it. Just throw the round away.

Happens more often with Federal because of the sharp corners and the way they put on the plating.

If you find many rounds that have high primers, I still recommend tossing them, or making them practice rounds. A very good reason to have WAY more components on hand then you need for your next match.

Helps your blood pressure and all to load match rounds EARLY, like 2 or 3 days early, at least. I like to load everything I need for the next week, put them in freezer bags that say "practice" or "match".

dvc - eric - a28026

[hicap30]

I have used Winchester primers since I started reloading. My data and loads stay consistant. However you do have to start all over with your reloading data anytime you change something, just to be safe.