Who's Judgement takes precedence at a club match?

[atek3]

Lets say, in some hypothetical scenario, the scorekeeper watched a run requiring two mandatory reloads. He's pretty sure the shooter skipped the first of the two mandatory reloads. The range is clear, and the scorekeeper says, "8 procedurals" (1 for each scoring shot fired after the non-existent reload), the shooter protests, and says, "what, of course I reloaded, here are the 4 magazines I used" and the RO says, "I saw him reload" what should the score keeper do in that situation?

I read the USPSA rule book and it seems like the Scorekeeper made a decision, the shooter appealed the decision and the RO agreed with the Shooter.

Now in this hypothetical scenario, because the ridiculously fast run was allowed to stand, the shooter in question was catapulted up the rankings.

[JThompson]

"Pretty sure" doesn't cut it in our game. You know or you know not. The RO says he reloaded, he reloaded. Whether he was right or wrong, he said he "saw" it. Saw always trumphs "pretty sure"

[atek3]

"Pretty sure" doesn't cut it in our game. You know or you know not. The RO says he reloaded, he reloaded. Whether he was right or wrong, he said he "saw" it. Saw always trumphs "pretty sure"

Okay, lets say the score keeper saw no-reload and the RO saw a reload, in that case the RO would still trump right?

[JThompson]

"Pretty sure" doesn't cut it in our game. You know or you know not. The RO says he reloaded, he reloaded. Whether he was right or wrong, he said he "saw" it. Saw always trumphs "pretty sure"

Okay, lets say the score keeper saw no-reload and the RO saw a reload, in that case the RO would still trump right?

Well, what should happen is the two discuss it and if they can't reach a consensus, the CRO if any takes the call. If both are RO's then they guy with the timer.

This is a great question...

[atek3]

"Pretty sure" doesn't cut it in our game. You know or you know not. The RO says he reloaded, he reloaded. Whether he was right or wrong, he said he "saw" it. Saw always trumphs "pretty sure"

Okay, lets say the score keeper saw no-reload and the RO saw a reload, in that case the RO would still trump right?

Well, what should happen is the two discuss it and if they can't reach a consensus, the CRO if any takes the call. If both are RO's then they guy with the timer.

This is a great question...

In this hypothetical scenario there was no CRO and RO had the timer. The scorekeeper was some shmoe who got drafted to keep score.

Edited April 24, 2009 by atek3

[jasmap]

"Pretty sure" doesn't cut it in our game. You know or you know not. The RO says he reloaded, he reloaded. Whether he was right or wrong, he said he "saw" it. Saw always trumphs "pretty sure"

+1. It is or it ain't. There is no "I think."

[rishii]

hypothetically if I suspected the 1st reload was not performed

I would check if there were 1 or 2 mags on the ground after the range clear is given. if there's only 1 mag, I would point that out to the RO and give the procedurals.

this would be similar to the score keeper calling a foot fault, that the RO didn't see.

[Aristotle]

Well, in some instances the Score keeper, who, ideally should also be an RO is asked to watch out for things like faulting, mag changes, etc. But this is usually negotiated ahead of time. if this was not negotiated with the RO running the timer, I would take the RO holding the timers word over a non certified score keep that can only claim to have "thought" he saw one thing, especially against an RO that is sure he saw another.

[shred]

What everybody else said about who makes the calls.

Unless the competitor is trying to cheat (or a really bizzare stage like shoot two, reload, shoot two), it should be easily verifiable by counting the dropped mags and then if needed, the remaining rounds in the dropped mags.

[sperman]

What everybody else said about who makes the calls.

Unless the competitor is trying to cheat (or a really bizzare stage like shoot two, reload, shoot two), it should be easily verifiable by counting the dropped mags and then if needed, the remaining rounds in the dropped mags.

Can the RO use the timer to help in his decision? i.e. if the split when he was supposed to do a mag change was .15 and the shooter wasn't Travis Tomasie can this be used as evidence?

[Pat Miles]

Wow, some of you folks are making a mountain out of a freakin molehill!

First, the RO with the clock who is behind the shooter SHOULD know if the shooter did the required two reloads. He is SUPPOSED to be watching the gun and any actions involved with it. Was the finger out of the trigger guard during the reloads? Was the gun pointed in the correct direction (180 degree rule) during the reloads? If the RO with the clock does not recall the two reloads and the safety issues during the reloads he sure should not be ROing. If per chance the RO went brain dead during the run then count the mags on the ground and get on with the scoring. It ain't rocket surgery!

CYa,

Pat

[Aristotle]

Can the RO use the timer to help in his decision? i.e. if the split when he was supposed to do a mag change was .15 and the shooter wasn't Travis Tomasie can this be used as evidence?

Officially... NO. The timer can only be used as a timing device and a decision should not be made based on counted shots. I know/understand you technically can, and in Level 1 matches it is often used, but based on the training I received in RO school, you can't and shouldn't.

[LPatterson]

The hypothetical scenario has some flaws that should be addressed first. The two mandatory reloads of 8 shots per magazine/reload and the implied use of one shooting position violate several rules. The stage may not mandate 8 rounds reload 8 rounds, 1.1.5.1 (1.2.1.1 short; 1.2.1.2 medimum) & 1.2.2.1 Standard Exercise (6 reload 6).

The RO's job of watching the gun for finger inside a trigger guard during a mag change or movement means they are in a better position to determine if a change was made. As to whom the appeal should be made is covered in 7.1.6 & 7.3.1.

[George Jones]

I'll add one more comment related to the original question.

The "match standing" end result of the scoring decision is not part of the process. Whether the shooter will "win" or "lose" the match does not matter and should (must) not be considered during the discussion.

The call is made in accordance with the rules, regardless of the consequences.

[Flexmoney]

Can the RO use the timer to help in his decision? i.e. if the split when he was supposed to do a mag change was .15 and the shooter wasn't Travis Tomasie can this be used as evidence?

I can, will and do. It's silly not to...unless the data is suspect.

The RO on the timer can certainly miss the shooter doing a reload. I've been there when the CRO's at the Nationals have missed them. As a matter of fact, with this shooter:

That is why we have an RO on the timer and an RO on the clip-board (or wherever). The two need to position themselves, throughout the cof, so that...at least...one of them has the angle to see what needs to be seen.

I've worked many matches. I don't instruct one RO to watch the feet and one to watch the gun, at least not in any exclusive or overly specific manner. I do instruct them to position themselves (and move) in a manner that covers the angles.

When you have a good CRO (like a Brian Hanna or Paul Hernandez) on a stage...watch where they plant themselves. See where they position their timer RO and their clip board RO. Watch a stage I'm running when a left handed shooter steps up. You will see all the RO's completely shift their positions (kind of funny watching the little dance that unfolds).

As to the call here...when two RO's can't agree on a call, it's time to bring in the CRO > Range Master. If the Range Master cannot make an accurate determination...then you are looking at a reshoot.

But, we never give out penalties on a "think so".

[Ron Rodgers]

The RO on the timer can certainly miss the shooter doing a reload. I've been there when the CRO's at the Nationals have missed them. As a matter of fact, with this shooter:

I keep telling that particular shooter to slow down a little so we can see his reloads, but he just won't listen

[Flexmoney]

He is trying to be sneaky, Ron. LOL

[h2osport]

Score keeper: " I did not see the reload"

RO: " I did"

Scorekeeper: " Okay, lets score the targets"

[George Jones]

Here is a sound concept to apply when it comes to penalties for required actions:

You do not penalize what you didn't see happen - as in "I did not see him reload".

You do penalize for what you saw not happen - as in "I saw him not reload".

The fact that you did not see the reload does not particularly mean it did not happen. There is a difference and you can't penalize unless you're certain.

[MTrout40]

Can the RO use the timer to help in his decision? i.e. if the split when he was supposed to do a mag change was .15 and the shooter wasn't Travis Tomasie can this be used as evidence?

I can, will and do. It's silly not to...unless the data is suspect.

The RO on the timer can certainly miss the shooter doing a reload. I've been there when the CRO's at the Nationals have missed them. As a matter of fact, with this shooter:

That is why we have an RO on the timer and an RO on the clip-board (or wherever). The two need to position themselves, throughout the cof, so that...at least...one of them has the angle to see what needs to be seen.

I've worked many matches. I don't instruct one RO to watch the feet and one to watch the gun, at least not in any exclusive or overly specific manner. I do instruct them to position themselves (and move) in a manner that covers the angles.

When you have a good CRO (like a Brian Hanna or Paul Hernandez) on a stage...watch where they plant themselves. See where they position their timer RO and their clip board RO. Watch a stage I'm running when a left handed shooter steps up. You will see all the RO's completely shift their positions (kind of funny watching the little dance that unfolds).

As to the call here...when two RO's can't agree on a call, it's time to bring in the CRO > Range Master. If the Range Master cannot make an accurate determination...then you are looking at a reshoot.

But, we never give out penalties on a "think so".

Nice link you posted there Kyle....that's one "sexy monkey" (if you don't know, don't ask)

I had a reshoot at a major match because of a similar situation. It was a field course and the first 4 or 5 targets were withn 5 to 6 feet of the shooting area. When the RO was scoring he called 2 mikes and an FTE on the second or third target. He looked at me and said "there is no way you could have missed that target". The scorekeeper said that I never shot at it. Now we had it on video and the squad looked at it while the Rangemaster was called and I clearly shot the target. It turns out the target was pasted before it was scored but no one would confess to it until after the match. However, here is the important part...The Rangemaster asked the scorekeeper if he WAS SURE if I engaged the target or not. The scorekeeper hesitated and then said I'm pretty sure he didn't engage it. The Rangemaster's words were..." I can tell by the hesitiation and you're answer that you are not sure, reshoot the stage. It turns out that was the right call to make.

In the end we need to RO a stage just like we shoot it. Pay attention to every little detail and call the shooter's moves just like we call our own shots. It either IS or ISN'T.....but you have to be sure.

And hey Rodgers......you need to increase my consultant fee a little to comply with your request