Diminishing returns of innovation ?

[BritinUSA]

Looking back over an old battered copy of 'Shooting from Within I found this old picture of an open gun. The book itself dates from 1991 but I don't know the year that the gun was made.

In the years that have followed the gun has become more refined, the style of compensators has changed slightly with a few more vertical holes and the addition of side ports and hybrid holes have been drilled in barrels. The design of scopes has evolved from tubes to open designs such as C-More & Docter and now there is a growing interest in tube scopes with the new Aimpoint Micro. Scope mounts have changed slightly, single-sided have all but replaced the doubled sided mounts that used to exist with most tube sights. We have seen the build-quality of open guns improve considerably, with better reliability and finishing touches such as hard-chrome, magwells and lighter triggers.

But in recent years the level of innovation seems to have reached a peak, minor changes to design are perhaps more a consequence of individual taste and preferences than a quest for a significant competitive advantage.

The question is this;

Is this reduction in innovation due to the overall design of Open guns reaching a peak, or is it an awareness that the gun is less important to competitive superiority than was previously thought ?

[kimel]

Or is it that no one can technically meet the abilities of the current platform so it isn't being pushed as hard?

The trend toward short open guns pushed some innovation but now we see some folks going back to the longer gun after tiring of the abuse the short guns can dish out.

I think there is plenty of room for innovation yet but the advancements will be in smaller increments.

[Freddie the Swede]

My thought are that since the introduction of the added classes such as production, modified and standard (talking IPSC rules here) the race guns have stagnated a little bit as there is not a one class game any more.

More thought and money from the mfg:s is steered towards more classes and different guns.

At the same time some mfg:s specialize in different guns (read STI, SVI and SPS). More aftermarket suppliers strive and the evolution goes forward.

It's very much like car racing. Take for example F1 racing. The cars looks a little different each year but the general desing is not changed.

On the other hand the results are improving all the time.

20 years ago a 7 second run on the El Presidente was considered really fast. Today thats a slow time.

It's amazing how fast everything gets evolves.

23 years ago when I started IPSC shooting I had the most tricked out gun in the area. It was a Colt Commander with a Wilson barrel and LE Accu comp (Single Chamber) in 45 acp, Bo-Mar sights and a crisp 3 Lbs trigger. On my belt I had the newest Wilson/Rogers holster and 6 Wilson 8 shot magazines. I was king in my club I enjoyed shooting.

Today I have a 28 shot SPS/Caspian 2011 with C-more sights, a four chamber comp in 38 super and a Safariland 011 holster.

Evolution has taken me from 8 shots in 45 acp and iron sights to 28 shots in 38 super and a Heads Up Display red dot sight.

It's still a race gun but the difference is like racing a 1960:s F1 car with radial tires to a 2000 F1 from Ferrari.

It's still cars but the difference is mind boggling.

I think that in ten or twenty year in the future we will have more evolution and better guns and different designs.

maybe totally new guns but the main thing will remain. DVC (Precision, Power and accurcy).

I must stop rambling........

Cheers

Fredrik

[SharonAnne9x23]

The 'weapons race' pretty much stopped about 20 years ago. We went through a rush of evolution from the single stack, iron sight 7 shot mag .45s, the 8 shots, comps, comped 38 supers, wide body 38 super and then the red dot wide body 38 super.

I watched friends spend over $20,000 keeping up with the changes.

Now it has stabilized. The 'Open' pistol fits a pattern; the 'Limited' pistol fits a different pattern and the single stack 45 has returned in the 'Single Stack' division. The remaining orphans are the single stack, comped 38 Supers.

I think the major changes have plateaued. We will see minor refinements but I think we are done with with the rush from dinosaurs to primates.

Now we will see the fine tuning of the ultimate shooting platform, the shooter. Physical fitness, flexibility, visual and perceptual acuity will be the areas of future shooting refinement.

[larry cazes]

I will agree that there appears to be too much "follow the leader" mentality in open guns right now. This isn't unique to the shooting sports but it has existed in every organised sport that I have ever been involved in. What I don't agree with is that there is no room for and no real innovation going on. There is plenty going on with development in other (non 2011) platforms, sight options, and there are even some recent changes in the 2011 as well. It is what WE make of it. If you feel stagnant, then change your mindset concerning your guns. What the typical 2011 platform has evolved into has more to do with marketing and less to do with a "Diminishing Return of Innovation".

[Jake Di Vita]

The advances now are getting to be much more pricey to R&D. I've had a few thoughts, but no way to implement practical research into it.

[uscbigdawg]

I've watched open guns over the last 12 years that I've shot and I still own (and shoot) my first Open gun. Through the short gun fad and now the 9 Major craze, my Open gun(s) are basically the same as what was used in the early to mid-90's. Heck...I load my ammo at 172-173 PF as it just runs the gun better and feels better (even at Steel Challenge matches).

Personally, what I would like to see is a wider variety of Open guns. While the STI/SVI is definitely the standard, that doesn't mean we can't see more of a variety. Thank goodness EAA is back in the game as well as Glocks but that doesn't mean we can't have XD's & M&P's in the mix too. However, like Jake said, it's not like the old days where everybody and their brother with a mill wanted to find the best widget. Material isn't getting cheaper and folks are just less willing to invest in R&D.

I've heard an awesome design for a rifle action from a known rifle shooter and the response from many shops to do the work was that they can't keep up with the sales of what they have now, so anything new would hinder that, even though it IS better.

It's kind of frustrating, but the optimist in me says that maybe due to the work that was put in over the last 2 decades, maybe it's a sign that we can now concentrate on being better marksman instead of chasing the latest and greatest widget.

Rich

[BritinUSA]

I think the major changes have plateaued. We will see minor refinements but I think we are done with with the rush from dinosaurs to primates.

Now we will see the fine tuning of the ultimate shooting platform, the shooter. Physical fitness, flexibility, visual and perceptual acuity will be the areas of future shooting refinement.

+1

[shred]

I think it's funny that the division with the least rules on gun design has the guns that look and act most the same, yet we try so hard to make other divisions 'fair' by adding equipment rules of one sort or another.

[Sterling White]

I think it's funny that the division with the least rules on gun design has the guns that look and act most the same, yet we try so hard to make other divisions 'fair' by adding equipment rules of one sort or another.

+1

[AlamoShooter]

Restrictions limits

The gun in the photo looks like the gun Brian used when he shot for S&W.

Edited March 25, 2009 by AlamoShooter

[10ring]

I think J. Michael Plaxco, the author of the book, was shooting for Team Smith & Wesson, during the same time as Brian was.

Restrictions limits

The gun in the photo looks like the gun Brian used when he shot for S&W.

[Flexmoney]

I think pics of Brian's gun might be around....could take some digging.

[L-10_shooter]

I think it's funny that the division with the least rules on gun design has the guns that look and act most the same, yet we try so hard to make other divisions 'fair' by adding equipment rules of one sort or another.

I agree, it seems that every one in open around here has to have an STI to be competitive. I dont shoot open but would like to build an open slide for my glock (.40 caliber) sometime in the future, mix things up. I like diversity.

[GentlemanJim]

There isnt anything else out there that can exceed the SVI STI platform

Comps still have a long way to go and I think some new designs are in order.

Mags are about as far as they can go

Optics are well established.

Triggers and internal parts are easy and up to par.

Its not a lack of rules...the rules we have cover most of what could be changed.

What else is there?

[Flexmoney]

What else is there?

Caspian builds are very nice shooters.

Run great (Steve Anderson's runs as good as a stock Glock).

Give max capacity. (George Jones has a legal mag that goes 30+1)

The two top USA shooters at the last World Shoot both run Caspians. (KC and Travis) KC has won a zillion Steel Challenge matches with one. Travis wins with one whether it's Limited or Open.

World Champ uses a Tanfoglio.

Henning runs circles around people with an EAA/Tanfoglio.

Todd Jarrett has won every match around with a Para. Robbie, with a Springfield.

I've seen a guy kick some butt with a 9mm Beretta with a red dot riding the slide.

Most of those people are...

"Happier than a itchy pig rubbing against a rail fence".

[larry cazes]

Too much whining....

[ChrisMcCracken]

I think I saw an article recently about a new design of mag for service berettas taking mags that used to hold 15 up to 20 with the same external demensions. They are using a completely new design concept for the spring. It's a spring wound around a spool in the follower and the other end attached near the feed lips. As the bullets load in, it unwinds. This is definitely still in its infancy, but I think its proof that there is room for innovation even in things we think are at their pinnacle. Apply that to an open mag and you may have 35 to 40rd mags.

[Joe4d]

The new direction in shooting open is gonna be the home sub $1000 (plus sight) builder. Custom built race guns have kinda plateaued, What I see on the horizon are home bolt on mods for making open Glocks, XD's, and M&P's. Even the great builders are getting in on it. Alot of us are natural tinkerers, 1911's were the original experiment platform because they were cheap and every where and every one had a couple laying around. Now that niche is being filled by polymer guns. One of us looks at a new gun and instead of shooting it thinks How can I bolt on a comp and reddot ?

[ciscoip]

In the U.S., I think Open is probably at the end of the line, as far as innovation goes, and the STI with a C-More, 4-5 chamber comp, big stick, in 9x19 major is pretty much it. Yeah, a couple people might shoot Caspians, but I expect they'll eventually go the way of the Para Ordnance pretty soon . . . especially if we have another AWB and they don't have any mags or even replacement components for sale. Para Ordnances tend to be too fragile around the dust cover, don't have the tolerances that the S_Is do, and IIRC, aren't available as frame kits anymore.

Tanfoglios might be players in the rest of the world, but as long as we're stuck with EAA as the exclusive importer, they're never going to amount to much here.

[Flexmoney]

In the U.S., I think Open is probably at the end of the line, as far as innovation goes, and the STI with a C-More, 4-5 chamber comp, big stick, in 9x19 major is pretty much it. Yeah, a couple people might shoot Caspians, but I expect they'll eventually go the way of the Para Ordnance pretty soon . . . especially if we have another AWB and they don't have any mags or even replacement components for sale. Para Ordnances tend to be too fragile around the dust cover, don't have the tolerances that the S_Is do, and IIRC, aren't available as frame kits anymore.

Tanfoglios might be players in the rest of the world, but as long as we're stuck with EAA as the exclusive importer, they're never going to amount to much here.

Well..yeah. You are talking hurdles there, not innovation or options.

Your not mistaken on the logistics, but that isn't the question put forth on the thread.

It does put focus on the fact that Open guns...while their innovation eventually leaks down the chain...are a very small market and have high cost associated with them.

And, that brings us back full circle with the opening post.

[shred]

IMO there's lots of room for improvement in Open guns...

The trouble is the cost it will take to do most of those changes pretty much puts them out of the question.

The second issue is even if we make all these improvements, who can take advantage of them?

I know of very very few shooters that are held back by a top of the line Open gun.

Enjoy the "level playing field"

[shooterbenedetto]

As long as the gun and ammo are reliable and can shoot 40rds per stage,

we all need to work on our skills and not worry about the equiptment.

[VegasOPM]

I agree that the Open arms race will be to see who can build competitive guns to a price point. Lets face it, the economic situation has led to a lot of folks rethinking their lifestyles- me included. I'd rather have a basic, but reliable Open gun for $1500 than a no limit $5000 gun.

[SA Friday]

I agree with a few what some of the others have mentioned. The innovation will come in form of other viable open gun platforms.