heavy metal Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 I shot a classifier match this past weekend and I had a shooter ask to reshoot a stage. I told him no you can't do that. I was informed from a couple of different people that yes this was ok. I don't know about everyone else, but I will earn every classification that I get. I can't believe anyone would sit there and shoot the same stage over and over to perfect it. Has anyone heard of this travisty? Is this classified as practice? I would call it cheating. I guess some people will do anything to reach grandmaster. Truly sad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mda Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 Yep!! done all the time. "Grandbaggers" and most will be soundly beaten by A class shooters at sectional/state/nationals matches. MDA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Mainus Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 We don't have people shooting them over and over, but if someone screws up a classifier, and it does happen, and they want another shot at it, we allow that. It just costs them $5 to re-shoot it They usually only try it one more time. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSEMARTIN Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 I've seen this too. It's pitiful. Just pitiful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 You don't get do-overs at a major match. I think it's important to shoot a local match as if it were a Nationals. Then when you shoot Nationals it will be like shooting a local match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mlmiller1 Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 I believe uspsa rules allow that BUT, the score they shoot does not count for the match, only for a classifier. Look at it this way, what if this guy is shooting well above his class at most matches, just doesn't have the classifiers to promote? Now, if he shoots the classifier & say has a mag problem or whatever. Wouldn't you want him to reshoot it & maybe move up? If he doesn't reshoot it, everyone will call him a sandbagger, if he does, they call him a grandbagger. Which would you rather shoot against? If he wants to move up, I say more power to him. Let's say he isn't good enough to move up under normal conditions. If he manages to get a card with a class too high to be competitive in, whose fault is it, & what or who does it hurt? Does it hurt you if you are an A shooter & you beat someone that grandbagged & got an M? Heck no, we all enjoy beating someone with a higher classification than we have. Does it hurt the other M's? No, what do they care, one more M in their group that may help them get another place plaque at matches that have placques & also one more M they can beat. As far as I can see, the only person it hurts is the grandbagger themselves. It won't be long before they quit shooting. They got some stupid piece of cardboard with a letter on it that made them happy but then were never able to get anything else, like for example a trophy. How long do you think they will continue to show up to get beat? Not that long. Of course, this is just my opinion. I am a mostly B class shooter with occasional good stages. Like another shooter says, "maybe I don't know nothin'" MLM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nashvillebill Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 The only I time I ever reshot a classifier, I ran it within a tenth of a second of the first, same points and same number of Mikes. I felt the Universe speaking to me that day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steel1212 Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 If you screw up, you screwed up. If you have a mag problem, have your gear in better shape. If you drop your reload, dry fire more. I just don't see the point in reshooting anything. You guys are right though if they want to grandbag that is fine with me they will get spanked all the time and everybody will know it. Its the ones that keep a beach in their bags that get all my nerves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larry cazes Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 This is quite common actually. I think it contributes to the problems we have with HHFs and our classification system. This is precisely why I don't go to any classifier only matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlamoShooter Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 (edited) I reshot several Classifiers, it was allways when I messed something-up. I havent reshot one in over a year. I did not feel rite competeing in A class. I would rather finish lower in Master class than pick on guys in A class. Like MI Miller says it does not count for the club match score, the club sends in the results & the fees gets paid and it is allowed buy the rules. I have shot some scores over 95% but never on a reshoot. The name Cheater is a very Heavy Word , make sure you can cary it when you use it ty18956 Edited March 12, 2009 by AlamoShooter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 If you screw up, you screwed up. If you have a mag problem, have your gear in better shape. If you drop your reload, dry fire more. I just don't see the point in reshooting anything. You guys are right though if they want to grandbag that is fine with me they will get spanked all the time and everybody will know it. Its the ones that keep a beach in their bags that get all my nerves. Yep, and the reality is that if they fumble the reload, that classifier isn't likely to count for them anyway, so it's not going to hurt their average at the next calculation. Heck, I was just burning down a classifier a few weeks back and threw a mike on the very last target (one-handed)....ugh. It worked out that it was still high enough to count and pull down my average...now that really sucked, but I earned it. I haven't done the math, but without that Mike it probably would have been a solid 90% or something...ouchie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimmyZip Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 I believe uspsa rules allow that BUT, the score they shoot does not count for the match, only for a classifier. Look at it this way, what if this guy is shooting well above his class at most matches, just doesn't have the classifiers to promote? Now, if he shoots the classifier & say has a mag problem or whatever. Wouldn't you want him to reshoot it & maybe move up? If he doesn't reshoot it, everyone will call him a sandbagger, if he does, they call him a grandbagger. Which would you rather shoot against? If he wants to move up, I say more power to him. Let's say he isn't good enough to move up under normal conditions. If he manages to get a card with a class too high to be competitive in, whose fault is it, & what or who does it hurt? Does it hurt you if you are an A shooter & you beat someone that grandbagged & got an M? Heck no, we all enjoy beating someone with a higher classification than we have. Does it hurt the other M's? No, what do they care, one more M in their group that may help them get another place plaque at matches that have placques & also one more M they can beat. As far as I can see, the only person it hurts is the grandbagger themselves. It won't be long before they quit shooting. They got some stupid piece of cardboard with a letter on it that made them happy but then were never able to get anything else, like for example a trophy. How long do you think they will continue to show up to get beat? Not that long. Of course, this is just my opinion. I am a mostly B class shooter with occasional good stages. Like another shooter says, "maybe I don't know nothin'" MLM This D woudl agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trevoro Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 (edited) I used to reshoot them all the time. It is actually how I learned to see the sights and get rid of the limits I had put on how fast they could be seen. A few years back, I shot a match with a production GM. When we got to the classifier, I shot it in something like 5.76. He shot it in about 4 flat. I said, "there is no way you are actually using the sights while going that fast!" He told me that he was, and that I could too. I shot it again in just over 4 but lost track of the sights after about the 2nd target. So, I shot it again with a new goal: see the sights. I shot it AGAIN in about the same time, but I saw the sights. Had this not happened, I would have been trapped by what "I" thought was possible. I continued to reshoot classifiers for a few years. My goal was to see the sights while shooting at a ridiculous, though known and possible speed. That may be cheating, but it also made me a better shooter. I shot my first 100% a few weeks ago with NO reshoot, and that felt pretty damn good too. In any case, I stopped reshooting a while back, partially because of "cheater" comments; but also because I now know what speeds I can drive a gun to. I wouldn't have gotten there any other way. There are guys who can shoot M/GM classifier scores who can't run a field course to save their lives. The reverse is also true. In the end, I agree that the match result, not the classification, tells the tale. Edited March 12, 2009 by trevoro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawn Knight Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 I have shot several different Divisions on the same Classifier. Sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't. I am not hurting myself by trying. Some of us only have a limited amount of time to shoot during the year. I have been Deployed for the last 4 months and missed some classifiers. I need all the chances I can get! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr2e Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 i look at it like this if the results of a person's actions doesn't effect me it doesn't really matter. some things are out of my control... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boz1911 Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 I've only done a few "reshoots" and only once did one ever count. I felt guilty about that one until we shot it at another match and I bettered my original "reshoot" score. Now it's once and done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Get'em Duck Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 I'm sorry but classifiers should be treated the same as any stage in a match. You F up oh well better luck next time. That is why we spend so much time and money ....PRACTICING. Sure I'll set up to practice and shot is over and over but at a match I wouldn't even consider asking to res hoot. If thats the case why don't they just make classifiers the best run out of three and let every one have three goes at it........not hardly. For those that do , do it just ask your self is, it fair to everyone else that had a hard time with their run but didn't re shoot it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackSabbath Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 (edited) What does the rule book say about this practice? As for me, I've never "re-shot" a classifier. There are no do-overs in big matches. I don't care if your gun pukes, or you make a mental error, take the score because you earned it. Edited March 12, 2009 by BlackSabbath Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisa006 Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 For me if I cannot do it on demand I don't deserve it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heavy metal Posted March 12, 2009 Author Share Posted March 12, 2009 I'm sorry but classifiers should be treated the same as any stage in a match. You F up oh well better luck next time. That is why we spend so much time and money ....PRACTICING. Sure I'll set up to practice and shot is over and over but at a match I wouldn't even consider asking to res hoot. If thats the case why don't they just make classifiers the best run out of three and let every one have three goes at it........not hardly.For those that do , do it just ask your self is, it fair to everyone else that had a hard time with their run but didn't re shoot it. I have to agree 100 percent. You know if you want to download classifier stages and set them up at you local club or at home, that's fine. I just don't see it fair to get to shoot over and over while noone else gets to. I have never done a reshoot unless it was a range failure. Reshoots will almost always bite you in the butt. I didn't realize this subject was so touchy, but I hear ya and I agree with most of you guys statments. I going to no longer care if everyone wants to grandbag as it doesn't affect me. I still say it's sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joseywales Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 Couldn't find anything about reshooting a classifier just for "classification purposes" (not match score) in the rulebook. However, there is a reference to "reshoot a classifier practice" in the classification Book - last section of page 8. National Classification Book What The System MeasuresMany shooters use the classification system as if it were a huge postal match. Their goal is to obtain an Master or Grand Master classification, and they can get discouraged when they see their percentage changing from time to time. Recently, some members have come to believe that the system was intended to indicate the highest performance level they could reach. Unfortunately, it is a simple matter for members to shoot a particular classifier over and over until they achieve as high a score a possible, then they send that score in to be used. This results in a classification that does not reflect reality, and in most cases, members who have done this cannot realistically compete at that higher level. It is understood that anyone can do poorly on a classifier stage for various reasons, and this is why the USPSA board of directors has allowed members to reshoot a classifier stage for classification purposes. This permission should not be construed to mean that members can shoot classifier stages repeatedly until they have a score they like. The integrity of the classification system is at stake. What the system was really designed and meant to show is how well a member can perform on a regular basis so that they can compete against shooters of their own relative skill level. It adds to the fun and excitement of practical shooting, the greatest shooting sport going! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larry cazes Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 i look at it like this if the results of a person's actions doesn't effect me it doesn't really matter. some things are out of my control... Yes, but repeated runs do effect the HHF in the database so they do indirectly effect you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jman Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 It's just another stage. Not sure how your club does it. Here, the first go round is for match score, so if you tank you tank. Want to play more? Pay the lady behind the window. Our percentage of total match points compared to the champions is our true classification. Anytime I score 60-63% of TGO's score during our monthly drills...I'm pretty freakin' happy. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heavy metal Posted March 12, 2009 Author Share Posted March 12, 2009 Josey, I'm not talking about what rule book says. The point is a shooter just shouldn't do it. I don't care if it's leagel or not. If you mess up chalk it up as a learning experiance. I shot a match last weekend where I hade gun problems and that's too bad for me. For me I guess better luck next month. I think a shooter like myself will sleep better at night knowing I did my best and that's it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 (edited) Yes, but repeated runs do effect the HHF in the database so they do indirectly effect you. Really? Prove it... As near as we can tell, based on data gathered on the forum, etc, the HHFs in the DB haven't been adjusted since they were initially set. Otherwise, there are quite a number of classifiers that would have much higher 100% marks than they do... Sure, USPSA gives lip service to adjusting them, but in practice, it simply doesn't happen. (eta - I don't mean that to be combative... just that the notion that someone grandbagging is hurting anyone but themselves seems to be an urban legend ). Edited March 12, 2009 by XRe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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