Fastest gun in the North?

[joecichlid]

different type of draw that SASS-type shooters but that is why he is so fast.

If you find a high res copy of that video you can see on one clip that there is a dent in the Ti kick plate at the bottom of his holster where he set one off during the draw. Having seen him in person a few times the man is flat out fast. While recovering from a torn rotator cuff he was doing 0.05 draws, even with a bumb wing he is still way faster than I can imagine.

Joe W.

[ebg3]

Since I started this game in '97, I've worked on my draw and remember trying very hard to reach 1.00 sec.. Didn't think it would ever happen. I've been skeptical and a little envious of people claiming .70 and less draw times at 7-10 yard targets. When I first started trying to break that 1 sec. mark I made it into the .80's and my fastest was .76 at 10yards but that was beyond the ragged edge and not consistant. Now, I'm in the mid to upper .80's out of a CR Speed or Bladetech with my SV limited gun or the M&P Production gun; don't seem to see much difference in the rigs or guns. These times are at practice sessions and can be repeated consitantly.

My question is to those drawing in the low .70's or less, how consistantly can you do it and are you bringing the gun up to your sight plane and taking a good shot? I've wondered about one's arm length and how far the gun is being extended on the draw. I'm 6' 9 with a long reach and I break my shots pretty much at full arm extension. If my reach was less, would my draw times be faster?

EG

[Ridgerunnr]

When i practice i can do a consistent .71 from surrender with a 40 'foglio Limited and a DOH holster..the key is going to the gun as hard as you can, ripping the gun out ..I break the first shot as the gus start to move out evenly at the target the second breaks as soon as the sights come back down .. I think arm length matters asa I have two practice partners who are quick but are the gangly version..lol they are usually a solid .80 when practiced up.. However I never run that fast in a match..if im at 1 to 1.10 im fine with that ..

[R.Elliott]

Hmm, I feel like quite the sloth. I normally run around a second at ten yards, can get low .90's if I'm warmed up, mid to low .80's if I'm really dialed in and properly caffeinated, and haven't done anything below .80 since I stopped doing the snatch draw some years ago. Mind you I did inherit ape arms from my Dad's side of the family.....

[ebg3]

Ape arms... I have practiced breaking the shot before fully extended and think that may help. Need to try that a little more.

[calishootr]

practicing for the '93 steel challenge, I had gotten my draw down to a nifty .75, but that was during loooong practice sessions and to be honest, some ofthose were luck/reaction/alignment ofthe sun-moon-stars.....still, its kind of cool to see those sub 1 second times on the timer

nowadays i can be timed w/ the proverbial sundial hehehe

[Mo Hepworth]

Hmm, I feel like quite the sloth. I normally run around a second at ten yards, can get low .90's if I'm warmed up, mid to low .80's if I'm really dialed in and properly caffeinated, and haven't done anything below .80 since I stopped doing the snatch draw some years ago. Mind you I did inherit ape arms from my Dad's side of the family.....

You are quite the ape..LOL.

I seem to remember a very smooth draw from the steel shoot-off at the 2008 Canadian Nationals.....and I have the video some where...

[38supPat]

Now here's the bad news; due to the fact that most matches consist of mainly long/field courses...the draw just does not matter that much anymore. Once you get in the 1.00 second range you are far better off making sure you get a perfect grip on the gun and a clean presentation (A hit) on the first target, than trying to rip off a fast draw. On a field course the difference in draw time is just such a small percentage of the overall time that it is not a big deal. On any stage with a hit factor of 10 or less every tenth of a second gained on the draw is outweighed by each C you shoot. In reality on all but the closest first target most GM's won't be much faster than a .9 to 1.0 (I'm talking real match stage times not practice LOHF times) so even if you rip off a .8 draw, one extra C will put you behind. And even on the rare speed shoot where you think a fast draw will help...well since they factor so little in the overall score a speedy stage win on a a speed shoot will gain you nothing in the match.

For example this is a 18+ hf stage, the names have been remove to protect the innocent, but look even here how much more points were worth than raw speed:

1 38 2.04 18.6275 40.0000 100.00 113 Robert

2 40 2.16 18.5185 39.7661 99.42 103 Alex

3 39 2.22 17.5676 37.7240 94.31 198 Roel

4 36 2.23 16.1435 34.6660 86.67 165 Michael

5 40 2.49 16.0643 34.4959 86.24 123 Jeff

6 36 2.28 15.7895 33.9058 84.76 122 Pat

For the top two shooters dropping two points to gain a mere .12 of a second put them pretty much dead even.

What I'm saying is that aside from bragging rights, once you get down to around 1.00 draws with a consistant center A hit...start working on other stuff...unless you shoot steel challenge...there are som many more important areas to worry about in a match.

[Jim Norman]

How fast you can draw and fire a shot is not what wins, it is how fast you can draw and HIT the A-ZONE that wins. A target at 3 yards VS a target at 20 yards, same rig, same start position, now which do you think will be the faster shot? Only the A-zone counts.

I am not a betting man, but I would probably put up the farm on the 3 yard shot here.

All the fast draw is good, and reacting to the buzzer and getting your gun up and on target is excellent, you probably aren't winning C class with a 2.5 second draw, but you aren't losing it with a 1.5 second draw. And do remember that the penalty for an AD on that draw is a long day with no shooting or a short day at the range with a lot of driving. The guys that are setting many of these records are doing it by trying over an over till they get it, it is not an on demand skill set. Yes they are fast, VERY FAST and we can, most of us, be faster than we are, but points count for us in a big way, especially on the faster COF. We cannot afford a C, D or worse a Miss, we don't get do-overs in USPSA.

Now all that said, I think I;ll do some practice. Personally I find I can get the gun up and I can fire it fast enough, my downfall is waiting for my eyes to catch up and focus. Getting old sucks, just not as much as not getting old.

[ebg3]

I agree that a super fast draw is not as important as we want to think it is. When I posted earlier and gave my times, I assumed that others were only counting A hits. For me right now, .85-.90sec (a hits) at a 10 yard target is easy and consistant. Pushing it, I really don't do much better- maybe low.8's.

EG

[XRe]

Now here's the bad news; due to the fact that most matches consist of mainly long/field courses...the draw just does not matter that much anymore. Once you get in the 1.00 second range you are far better off making sure you get a perfect grip on the gun and a clean presentation (A hit) on the first target, than trying to rip off a fast draw.

I both agree and disagree - very much. Here's why....

I agree that, once you get a nice, consistent, solid 1.00-ish match draw to the A-zone on a 10 yard target (with commensurately equal speed on targets at other distances), you really need to examine other areas for big gains. Arguably, you should be looking for bigger gains elsewhere before you get to this point. You can literally pick up whole seconds on stages simply by working movement skills - even just a little bit. Those skills are worth a lot more match points than the draw, and most shooters will make big gains here with relatively little effort when compared to trying to pick up .05-.10 seconds on the draw after that "consistent 1 second" point.

I disagree that the draw "just does not matter that much anymore". That's a fallacy. There is no part of the game that "does not matter" - in the end, everything is worth points. Interestingly, if you look at a broad selection of major match stages, everything tends to factor out to 10 factor - penalties tend to be worth 10 match points, tenths of seconds tend to be worth single match points. For whatever reason, this seems to be a relative truism, and it's something you'll hear the top GMs mention a lot, if you listen (in other words, I'm not just making it up). If my draw to any given presentation is consistently 2 tenths faster than yours, I have a 2 point buffer on every stage before we begin the match - in the Nationals, that's going to be about 30 match points through the course of the match (figuring 15 draws - there might be some table starts, etc). 30 points is frequently 10 places at a major match - and is far more than the margin matches are typically won by. 30 points is worth working for, in my opinion.

The point is - you need to accurately identify your weakest points, and work on those first - you will always see your biggest gains by working your weakest points that factor most into the game. One way to determine that is here: http://drperformanceshooting.com/articles/practicedrills/105-what-to-practice (register to read the article You can see a teaser here: http://re-gun.blogspot.com/2007/11/what-do-i-need-to-practice.html

But don't ever kid yourself that something means nothing... or that nothing means something. Maku mozo

[38supPat]

That's why I said it didn't matter that much. Of course it still matters, but compared to a match with speed shoots with a higher hit factor where time start to matter even more, it is less important than in a match with a lot of field courses. At Area 2 the hit factors were running from 6 to 8 for most of the stages, the one speed shoot was a 9 (and that's Open class!) I've had speed shoot stages that were between 15 and 20, then the draw really start to matter. Another way to look at it; at the Steel Challenge the draw becomes extremely important! It starts to be a diminishing return for the amount of work needed. I wouldn't spend a lot of time working on the draw once you get below a second. I'd still work on it of course, just not as much.

[XRe]

That's why I said it didn't matter that much. Of course it still matters, but compared to a match with speed shoots with a higher hit factor where time start to matter even more, it is less important than in a match with a lot of field courses.

You missed my point entirely. If you examine a broad number of stages over a broad selection of matches, you'll find that most everything actually ends up having the same effect as if it were a 10 factor stage - regardless of the hit factor of the stage in question. It has to do with how much it affects your percentage of the stage winner's hit factor, not how it directly effects your hit factor. Give or take a point or two, a no-shoot is generally worth 10 match points regardless of the hit factor of the stage in question. Same thing with two tenths on a draw per stage. Try it out sometime - once you realize that, it makes figuring the actual net effects of things against your overall match score much easier

And, yes, it's rather surprising to me that it works that way, as well, but...

[38supPat]

Just gotta argue everything huh?

[Carmoney]

....haven't done anything below .80 since I stopped doing the snatch draw some years ago.

Yikes, I don't even want to think about the damage that could be caused by accidentally ripping off an early shot during a snatch draw!

[Team Amish 1]

I manage a consistent 2second+ draw with my six-shooter. I am sure several Houston shooters can confirm that.

[Carmoney]

Does anyone happen to have a photo of one of those snatch holsters?

[earlbob]

Took my little brother Donnie out shooting one day back at the end of the 80's and he put a golf ball on a post at 10 yards. He had more confidence I could hit then I did but hay, it was the little bro and I had to give it my best shot. I yanked my 45 out of the genuine Ernest T. Hill LEATHER holster when the PACT Timer said go and shot it in .74 on the first attempt.(trust me I did not try a repeat...) We went and looked for it and it had a clear divot in it from the bullet. Around that time in my life I did some split times that were quicker then the timer could register and I had seen some .11 and I think a .10 shot to shot times on it so they were quicker then that. I was a little bit goofy then and shot about 80,000 rounds one year. It was just pure FUN!

earl

[eric nielsen]

I met Ernie Hill years back & he was a very nice guy. At the time I used his Fast Trac holster which was spooky fast. A plug to go down your bore & you just lift straight up with no friction at all, if you cared to dial out all the side tension.

On a TV show maybe 10 years ago, Bob Munden explained the timers used for many of the old-time records including quite a few of his own. It looked like a big clock with a huge sweep-second hand, which started sweeping once the red reaction light came on part or all of the way [forget which].

Anyway Bob & many others got the hang of seeing the first glimmer of light before the timer started sweeping. So you had faster reaction to light than to sound, plus the timer handing you a few .001's too if you had great eyesight.

Saying all that, no doubt those guys are all stupendously fast.

[earlbob]

I enjoyed talking to Ernie on the phone the little bit that I did. He seemed like a pretty friendly fellow. My holster is a Leathem Enos 6.5. I bought a couple of them Fast Trak plugs years ago and tried to grind one down to fit inside my holster, wasn't much left of the plug by the time I got'er done. That holster does not look new anymore, one to many modifications and the working life has been a bit hard on the ol'gal but it still works...

[J-Ho]

I talked to a couple of old fast draw guys once. Anything that involves a deflector at the bottom of the holster so you don't shoot yourself in the leg, I want no part of.

J-Ho

[earlbob]

here is a link to an article on Thell Reed that has some videos of another fellow, Bill Oglesby, doing some trick shooting. In one of them, there are several as you go from page to page, he shows a couple of the techniques the fast draw guys used. It is very interesting, Bill O. is incredible with firearms.

http://www.gunsandammo.com/content/thell-reed?channel=handguns/tactics-training

earl

[benos]

Back in the day, my buddy Tawn Argeris and I came up with a game we called Last Shot of the Day.

The game could only be played with the last bullet in your possession. It was kinda of the shooter's version of Kung Fu's "when you can snatch this pebble from my hand it will be time for you to leave" test.

With an IPSC target at 3 yards, the goal was to hit the letter "A" in the head box as fast as you could. My best ever was a .68, and I punched the letter A nearly dead center. (It's the only target I still have, the head box is pinned to my office wall.)

It was an out of body experience. I could describe what I remember but no one would believe me.

be

[sperman]

Are you really going to leave us hanging like that and not tell us?

[Singlestack]

Back in the day, my buddy Tawn Argeris and I came up with a game we called Last Shot of the Day.

The game could only be played with the last bullet in your possession. It was kinda of the shooter's version of Kung Fu's "when you can snatch this pebble from my hand it will be time for you to leave" test.

With an IPSC target at 3 yards, the goal was to hit the letter "A" in the head box as fast as you could. My best ever was a .68, and I punched the letter A nearly dead center. (It's the only target I still have, the head box is pinned to my office wall.)

It was an out of body experience. I could describe what I remember but no one would believe me.

be

I bet you remember every detail like it was in super-slow motion.