What division helps make you a better shooter?

[lugnut]

I actually was thinking opposite of this. That's why when I've heard folks mention Open will make you a better shooter I was puzzled.

I seem to find it much more challenging to call shots and get a good sight picture with iron sight than an Open gun. I have only shot an Open gun a few times but I must say I thought it was easier- at least technically speaking- put the dot over the target, pull the trigger- wait till you get the dot on the target and again and pull the trigger. No worry about the front sight being centered just right in the rear notch while seeing the A zone of the target as as a blur.... hmmm.

Its because this game has very little to do with actual shooting. Alot people think shooting Open is easy after they take a few shots with an Open gun... "hell you barely have to aim". The thing is an Open gun is easy to shoot, but it magnifies all the other deficiencies. This is were it will make you a better shooter.

I know what you're saying (I remember very clearly our conversation ). The thing I can't understand is if I shoot Open a bunch.. then go back to iron sights- say Limited or Production- how will it help the actual "shooting" part?? I can clearly understand that this shooting game involves more than just seeing something and pulling the trigger (like stage plan, movements, etc). But I think getting good shots IS a big part of the game. Maybe I'm wrong and the other parts are more significant. In that case I can see your point. But can't one agrue the same thing by saying shooting with iron sights will help you more? i.e. Production penalizes your more for a C/D than Open and reloads/stage planning is arguably more critical. Am I wrong?

[Supermoto]

I know what you're saying (I remember very clearly our conversation ). The thing I can't understand is if I shoot Open a bunch.. then go back to iron sights- say Limited or Production- how will it help the actual "shooting" part?? I can clearly understand that this shooting game involves more than just seeing something and pulling the trigger (like stage plan, movements, etc). But I think getting good shots IS a big part of the game. Maybe I'm wrong and the other parts are more significant. In that case I can see your point. But can't one agrue the same thing by saying shooting with iron sights will help you more? i.e. Production penalizes your more for a C/D than Open and reloads/stage planning is arguably more critical. Am I wrong?

The shooting part will be improved by the feedback shooting a Dot gives you. It will help you find the flaws in your grip and how the gun is tracking.

Getting your hits is very important in all Divisions, you just can't drop points and do well. If that is were you problem is, start and finish each practice shooting groups, shoot 40yard head shots, we have seen those in Harvard Matches, so you have to practice them.

If you shoot Open then go back to Irons, you will now have a gun that tracks better for quicker follow ups, Plus all your movement skills will be alot better

Now during a match you can shoot accurately, not worry about speed, just get your hits, knowing you time will short because you are moving and setting up more effiecently. Locally the best person to watch this is GTOShootr, He always shoots accurately and his movement skills are getting much better.

[zhunter]

:blizzard:

[PistolPete]

I agree with Supermoto 100% as we both have very similar views on shooting. Switching to open has improved "MY" shooting more than anything else. (except of course my constant practice) What shooting open does is allows you to learn more efficient gun handling and moving drills which will translate into all other divisions. You will learn to shoot faster, move better, and pick up on your sights more quickly. When you learn to do this and then transition back to iron sights all you now need to do is slightly change your sight picture and you're off. It is easier to teach a shooter that is very fast but not very accurate to shoot accurately than an accurate shooter to shoot faster.

Also, as Supermoto mentioned the open division around here is where the heavy competition is and the desire to win/excel is that much higher. This forces you to practice more, smarter, and harder to get near the top. Plus spending more time moving and shooting and not reloading helps you to see stages differently and not plan the stage around reloading but around actual shooting.

As for open shooters not knowing how to reload I disagree with that 100%. I wish there was more reloading in this division as that is prob. hands down one of my strongest of all my shooting skills.

Also, as Dan S. mentioned try some of his limited guns. His 6" limited gun is pretty insane. I shot it last year in Westfield and it rocked...

[G-ManBart]

I think they can all teach you something and to some degree the answer will depend on where you shoot. If you're in an area dominated by Production, the best shooters are probably there...so you're going to be pushed harder to compete which should make you better. If you're shooting, Limited (for example) and nobody else is you don't have much of a frame of reference to see how you're doing.

Open will help you learn to see faster...everything happens so quickly. When you go back to an iron sight gun it will seem to be nearly slow motion...you'll be waiting on the front sight and not vice-versa. It will also help you really break down a stage to look for the absolute fastest way to get from A to B to C and not worry about anything else since you're not worried about multiple reloads...one at most.

Single Stack will teach you to make perfect reloads and force you to shoot nearly like it's Virginia count on every stage since a makeup shot usually puts you into slide lock for every reload and that usually is going to kill your run. The downside is it often forces almost everyone to shoot the stage the same way since everyone has to reload after every array.

Limited is sort of the do-it-all division. You still have to be good at reloads, but you don't have to do too many of them. You can often be creative in how you shoot the stage since you can normally finish with just one reload. The talent pool at most bigger matches is really deep in Limited so you're going to have to avoid major mistakes if you want to win, but you still have to go fast or you won't be competitive....a real balancing act.

I'm not really a Production or Lim-10 shooter so I can't say much about them....both will force you to do a lot of reloads and will cut down on some options as far as how you'll shoot the stage since you can't afford more than a makeup shot or two here and there. Production will definitely put a premium on accuracy. To be competitive in the other divisions you still have to get 90-95% of the available points, but you can survive a couple of C's and the rare D without getting hurt too badly. In Production a D is just a no penalty mike and it's definitely going to hurt your score.

Pick one and practice is a great idea, but that doesn't mean you have to shoot only one division....if you decide your primary is going to be Limited (just an example), there's no reason why you can't shoot one match a month in Production or SS to make you see things in a different light....or something like that.

[VegasOPM]

Like I said earlier in this thread. There are a lot of answers- and they are all correct.

[rvb]

I'm primarily a production guy. Shooting As is very important as are reloads and breaking down a stage for 10 rounds. As most will tell you revolver helps your trigger control because of the double action, well... I shoot a Beretta so I gets lots of good double action trigger control practice, too.

I started shooting open in '07 for fun as I wanted a break from PD. That dot exposed a LOT of weaknesses in my shooting, especially my "wobble zone" when shooting groups and how the dot/sight tracks in recoil. When I switched back to PD I was AMAZED how much better I could track the front sight and call my shots since now I realized what all was available for me to see. I also learned to be more aggressive on the stage since I didn't have to reload every 6-10 rounds. I learned how much the reload points were a crutch in my stage planning after actually forgetting to shoot multiple targets at a couple of matches; so the big-sticks helped my stage planning and prep also.

I can tell you in 2007 I was a B-class PD shooter. I shot Open almost all of '07 except for sept/oct. In just a couple of matches after switching back to PD I had my A card. I think Open really helped there. I pushed on in PD and got my M card, so this year I'm focusing on Open again to see what else I can learn about my shooting to help me progress in PD.

just my 2c.

-rvb

edit to add:

Of course, non of that may be true. Part of me thinks that doing something "different" forces you to get back to basics, re-evaluate everything you "know," and above all else... PRACTICE. Of course, the same is true when you switch back. Old things seem new and the basics need to be re-evaluated and re-engrained.

-rvb

Edited January 3, 2009 by rvb

[lugnut]

Well... maybe I need to accelerate my Open budget.... I guess I'm struggling with why you can't make the same improvements sticking with Production... but I'm not going to argue with a bunch of Master level shooters!!

[Supermoto]

Well... maybe I need to accelerate my Open budget.... I guess I'm struggling with why you can't make the same improvements sticking with Production... but I'm not going to argue with a bunch of Master level shooters!!

Throw a dot on the Glock, get some big mags, have fun... or Borrow one of Pete's many open guns

Edited January 3, 2009 by Supermoto

[Blueridge]

I'll throw my opinion into this thread. I am primarily a revolver shooter, and adding to that ( or hamstringing myself ) I use a Ruger Alaskan loaded with .45 Colt. Shooting revolver has improved my auto shooting skills, but I don't focus on those skills in the competition aspect. I have gained better trigger control and better along with faster sight acquisition. After handling an approximate 16lb trigger pull from my Alaskan and being able to hold sight alignment consistently, everything else seems inconsequential.

Revolver division seems to be the best choice for me, but I see nothing wrong with any of the other divisions. I just do not find much interest in them for me. I do think that the overall demands in a match are higher in single stack and revolver, but there is a high degree of challenge in all the divisions.

[hopalong]

Lugnut,

Here is the skinny.

Pick ONE !!!! and it DOESN't matter which one !!!!!!

If like you say you are shooting too many C shots in Limited (and you already have the gear) NEW goals and REFOCUS !!!!!

something like :

NO PENALTIES PERIOD for the first 2 months, THEN:

NO D hits PERIOD for the next 2 months, THEN:

10% C hits for the entire match !!!!! for the next 2 months, THEN:

Do ALL the above AT MATCH SPEEDS for the rest of the YEAR !!!!!

When you can do that, YOU WILL BE KICKING AXE !!!!!

(YOU won't be able NOT TOO !!!! )

HOPALONG

[Flexmoney]

:blizzard:

Thanks for that insightful addition to the forum discussion.

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=55789

[Graham Smith]

This is very unscientific and highly slanted....

First, the disclaimer, I had no choice but to start in Production because the only thing I had that I could shoot was a Glock 19.

Having said that, I now have everything I need to shoot Limited but plan on continuing to mostly shoot Production for the coming year. The reasons have been stated by others; Production in many ways is more difficult and makes you work harder on shooting A's and planning your course.

I do plan on shooting a few L10 matches this year. And as strange as this sounds, I want to shoot L10 rather than Limited as it will keep me focusing on planning, which is one of my weakest skills.

[Flexmoney]

I guess I'm struggling with why you can't make the same improvements sticking with Production... but I'm not going to argue with a bunch of Master level shooters!!

You certainly can. And, it may be a temperament thing. What works for some, might not work best for others.

I can make an argument for any division. So, anybody that has a favorite division is going to be able to wave the flag for their favorite.

Some people are gear hounds. That doesn't sound like you. If it's not you, then filter the advice you get from the gear hounds with that in mind.

If you shoot a division like Revolver or Production, you are probably going to need a certain type of mental attitude and mindset. Your scores will be lower. Your hit factors will be lower. You might OWN a run or a match, yet nobody will notice. I know that I've tore up stages while shooting Production...runs that would hold up at the Nationals...and didn't get any pats on the back form my squad (full of Master and GM Open shooters).

From where I sit, and my temperament...Open is fun, whereas Production is challenging. Now, if I were an Open shooter, I could easily argue that the other way. But, I'm not really. And, that is probably why I've tended toward shooting Production.

Recognize the differences.

[warpspeed]

Lugnut,

Here is the skinny.

Pick ONE !!!! and it DOESN't matter which one !!!!!!

If like you say you are shooting too many C shots in Limited (and you already have the gear) NEW goals and REFOCUS !!!!!

something like :

NO PENALTIES PERIOD for the first 2 months, THEN:

NO D hits PERIOD for the next 2 months, THEN:

10% C hits for the entire match !!!!! for the next 2 months, THEN:

Do ALL the above AT MATCH SPEEDS for the rest of the YEAR !!!!!

When you can do that, YOU WILL BE KICKING AXE !!!!!

(YOU won't be able NOT TOO !!!! )

HOPALONG

Hop is sooo right on this. Pick one and set goals. Focus on those goals. all the time. Each stage. During dryfire. During walk through.

My biggest problem is Mikes. It use to be NS so I focused on that. No more NS. Once I get the Mike thing strait I'll move onto stage points.

BTW, I shoot an open gun and only an open gun.

[HoMiE]

Doesn't matter what division you choose to shoot in...you have to execute the fundamentals to be successful in any on of them.

I do believe that you will progress quicker shooting Open however.

[Zerwas]

I remember talking with Jake D on this very subject at the 2005 nationals. Up to that point, I had shot only limited division. Jake told me that open would improve my game because the movement in and out of positions would be easier as there are no sites to line up to divide the attention.

I ended up shooting open AND limited in 2008.

The one thing I would advise you of is (and other people have already said this too, but it is worth noting again) pick one division and STICK with it.

I found myself dividing my attention between open and limited all year. Can't say I really liked it. It was much more difficult than what I could have ever imagined.

I won't be doing that again.

I would suggest shooting open to improve your game though.

[pskys2]

There are so many things that go into being a good shooter.

FWIW my take is:

Pick one Division and concentrate on it till you feel burned out, or stymied.

But remember it's all about having fun.

Open lets you concentrate on moving thru a course and firing the pistol without worrying about sight alignment.

But the competition is so stiff it's hard to see improvement quickly and the lack of a Sight Picture will slow down the gained experience from being used in other Divisions.

Limited lets you concentrate on moving thru a course and firing the pistol AND seeing a Sight Picture.

But again the competiton is very stiff and can be disheartning.

L10/SS helps you learn to break down courses, handling the pistol and sight alignment.

But the focus soon becomes figuring out the stages rather than shooting the pistol.

Production is the same as L10/SS but really puts the emphasis on Seeing the shot and perfecting your quick sight alignment.

But for most new shooters the lack of recoil will keep that knowledge from quickly transferring to other divisions.

Revolver is just Fun! It helps you work on your ego, kind of keeps you grounded.

But it puts so much emphasis on the handling of the pistol that it's a bit daunting for newer competitors, yet if you can do well it will help in all phases of your shooting and nothing will ever look impossible again!

[lugnut]

Great, great info- thanks! After reading this I understand more about the pros/cons of shooting different guns in USPSA. It makes sense as to why I felt so overwelmed when I first starting USPSA this last year with SS and Production! Figuring out the stages is something that has been a challenge to me as evidenced by my decent performance in classfiers... but not so good at club matches. This is opposite to what was happening in IDPA- my match results seemed to usually be better than my classifiers. Now to decide exactly what to do. I have a fair amount of time and money invested in Production equipment I may still stay here for a while. Longer term with be different for sure.

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

Pick whatever you want to shoot, take it to the MRA steel shoots and try to compete with that crew. It will make you a better shooter. I wish they were closer for me.

[lugnut]

Pick whatever you want to shoot, take it to the MRA steel shoots and try to compete with that crew. It will make you a better shooter. I wish they were closer for me.

Actually I went to one of their steel matches a couple weeks ago. Fun time.

[Bubber]

I know I am adding a little late but here goes, Which division will make you a better shooter? None.. To a better shooter you have to make yourself a better shooter. It is just more fun to shoot in a division that shows your strengths. As Flexmoney stated... Work on your weakness to make it your strength. That being said Ilike Revo

[Chris iliff]

I know this is probably a touchy subject but I'd like to get some thoughts on this. I've talked with some Master level shooters that say shooting Open will help make you a better Limited/Production shooter. I've heard Revo guys say shooting a wheel gun helps you become a better shooter because you can't waste any shots. You get the general ideas. Maybe there is no difference, maybe it doesn't matter.

Of course there a big differences between divisions and you should shoot what you like I guess.

My idea/goal is to get as proficient as I can with iron sight guns and then make a transition to Open some day. Part of the reasoning is that as my close vision is getting worse- I think my days shooting iron sights may get to the point where it gets too frustrating- I hope this is many years from now but who knows. I also realize that decent Open guns and equipment aren't cheap. I don't notice many Open gun shooters going to other divisions... at least locally.

What are your thoughts? I've got some 09 plans in the works... but still working on the 5 year plan.

To get to your idea/goal, I think you are right on. I started 4 years ago in OPEN simply because my Dad gave me an open gun. I know, lucky me! One summer to a "C", then 3 lonely years to make "B". When I think of a "do-over", I lean towards Production division. Do you want to become better at the "game" or a better shooter? If I had the money and resources I would start my own Junior program and everyone would have a Glock/Smith/XD...etc.

To me it is easier to shoot an "OPEN" gun, but that doesn't necessarily make me a better shooter. I feel that if I would have started as you are suggesting above, I would be a better shooter now. I think the fundamentals of shooting really come in to play and are more involved when you are shooting any stage with a production/limited 10 gun. I think that since I wasn't forced on most stages to do some fundamental things, like reload, or really break the stage down,

it slowed up my development. For me, in my neck of the woods, (Indiana) I was competing at the local level fairly early and all the practice I wasn't doing didn't seem to matter. I am now a high "B" and knocking on the "A" door. I also started practicing, calling my shots, reading the books, and generally listening to the folks here on the forums. I think that maybe if I would have started in Production then everything above would be switched. I guess it depends on your perspective and platform of proficiency maybe.

[Flexmoney]

Hop is sooo right on this. Pick one and set goals. Focus on those goals. all the time. Each stage. During dryfire. During walk through.

My biggest problem is Mikes. It use to be NS so I focused on that. No more NS. Once I get the Mike thing strait I'll move onto stage points.

You know, you can short-cut that whole mess. Instead of focusing on not doing a negative (or many various negatives)...replace that with just simply doing the positive.

Pick a Target Spot to hit. Aim small, hit small. That is a waaay better focus than not shooting a mike or not shooting a no-shoot, etc. Plus, it is simple.