2008 match report

[el pres]

Second. Limitations. We are effectively shooting a carbine, not a battle rifle. The practical range is probably as said above 400 or so yards.

I'm just answering above post !! Not making any tacticool statments...

I'm all for making any target over 425yd a bonus, which is how RM3G had it this year. My local 3gun only goes out to 180yd

and so if I'm going to a Rocky Mountain "Championship" I want it to be hard. I can never grasp the idea of, "it's too hard, I dont want to play anymore" ?? I shot my first target ever over 450yd at a match, that was a great feeling, everyone should try it you might be surprised. Whatever happened to 50yd pistol standards on a regular basis, I was'nt around then but I hear it was all the "RAGE"..

This year was my first RM3G and the extra long range targets were the hook for me. Where else can you run 40yds, then drop in a dirt pit to try to steady (breath) for a 600yd shot ? At the local High Power match ?? I'm not dead set on anything, I'm still new to the sport and love it enough to come out no matter what is thrown out there. I'm just bringing my opinion to the mix !! If I was king, nevermind !!

Peter

Edited December 31, 2008 by DIRTY CHAMBER

[Charles Bond]

I like the targets at extended ranges which I see as 300-500 but just because I like it does not make these wise targets to include in a match. Several have noted in this thread that the best way is having falling steel since there is no change of an RO blinking and missing a flash or the other problems that can result from flashers for long range targets. For any match to use falling steel this far from the line, unless there are "magic" reset buttons, it just is not practical. So to some extent the shooters are going to have accept the problems that come with long range targets.

[bigbrowndog]

Magic targets, are already available. the current R&R racing plate rack works great out to 300+, when you apply the proper hit on them they fall, but you do have to hit them. and you have to hit them with enough energy, thus negating bounces or edge hits and other low energy impacts. we have also had at LaRue targets used for years, there are several target systems out there that reset from a distance and yet the target falls away.

so the idea that we don't have the technology or that we'll have to waste time resetting is not true, also I can't recall a match I was at that didn't have ATV's running everywhere.

on the Killing of Iron sight divisions, this was referencing the proliferation of optic divisions springing out of Iron sight classes, as well as not making LR targets visible to non-magnified sight users., on the basis of well everyone has to shoot them that way, dealing with environmental aspects is expected, lighting, wind, rain, snow, etc.

trapr

[Jim Norman]

Bonus targets, over 400 yards, deduct time? how much? Has to be worth the effort. 5 seconds likely won't get many people to try.

[bigbrowndog]

Jim, I'd say it depends on how long it takes to shoot the normal part of the stage, 100 sec. avg. 20 sec. bonus. in 20 secs. an average shooter should be able to get 3-4 well aimed shots off, after that its a wash on time versus reward.

you could probably use a 1/5 to 1/4 time reward, based on what the MD feels would be an average time to shoot the stage, not the Max time.

IMO, a bonus target should be an OPTION, the MD should not plan on forcing the shooter to take the shot. for some people its just not worth it depending on how they are shooting that day, and how the conditions are.

On normal LR targets, I've seen too many tmes that a MD tries to force people to shoot their targets by assigning heavy penalties and then they make the shot hard and its still to their advantage to not take the shot. If you want your targets to be shot and it to be a disadvantage to not shoot them, then the shot has to be a very doable shot. Assigning heavy penalties to a hard shot does not make it an advantage to shoot it if there is still just a slim chance that you are going to hit it.

trapr

[el pres]

A lot of opinions out there about that R&R target ??

I think Larues are great but so dam expensive. You guys did'nt like the yellow backers, it's a start, I think

orange would be even better.

[Bronco]

Trapr, thanks for writing this up, well done!

I've always thought that "practical rifle" targets should be at least 3 moa, hey 4 is even better. It is a lot more enjoyable to hit the target than to try and hit the target and time out. The better you are the quicker you will get your hits so the cream will always rise to the top.

There are matches out there that give you fly specs to shoot at, if that is what trips your trigger than attend and support them.

The use of low loose fault lines should be abandoned (ropes at tripping height). Trip hazards and loaded guns don't mix. Yes I tripped over one at Ft.B3G with an unloaded AR and no I didn't drop it.

When using barricades, walls and other vision/shoot barriers they should be angled so has to lessen the chance for 180 violations.

Thanks to all who donate their time, money and considerable efforts so we shooters can enjoy our choosen sport!!

Keith

[bigbrowndog]

I just had an idea, how about allowing shooters to close the distance if they choose, give the option of getting closer.

I am reminded of an old hunting adage, that if the game(target) is smaller than your front sight then get closer, of course if we use a stock AR front post (.07ish)then that makes for a very big target, but with the current trend toward thinning the post to .050 or .035 then that equates to aprox. 3.5 to 5moa. which fits nicely with our 4moa target minimum.

however if a shooter wants to get closer, then why not??????

just a thought.

Trapr

[J-Ho]

I just had an idea, how about allowing shooters to close the distance if they choose, give the option of getting closer.

I am reminded of an old hunting adage, that if the game(target) is smaller than your front sight then get closer, of course if we use a stock AR front post (.07ish)then that makes for a very big target, but with the current trend toward thinning the post to .050 or .035 then that equates to aprox. 3.5 to 5moa. which fits nicely with our 4moa target minimum.

however if a shooter wants to get closer, then why not??????

just a thought.

Trapr

I like that idea. Choices are always good. We've done that locally with pistol targets, it works great. Some people don't like it but I think it's fun.

[Brian Payne]

Trapr

You mean like in Golf (which I don't do for whatever reason) when you can T-off from the little hill that is closer than the big boy hill?

[ShooterSteve]

Hey Trapr, thanks for putting this all down. I think that most of the stuff that has been said by you and others comes under the heading of common sense. Sometimes ranges or people make rules, and they may have a good idea in mind, but then it doesn't work very well, and it's just time to add a little common sense to the equation.

About getting DQd for dropping a gun, I got DQd at FB and it blew bigtime, but you know something, the minute it happened I knew I was a goner because I had read the rules! I still rolled over (as I was prone-so it was just an itty bitty drop) and asked Trapr if he was going to DQ me, and I could read it in his eyes that he hated to do it, but that is they way it was, and so it goes. I was just praying for a little mercy... To bigbrowndog, don't pick on dirty chamber about his avatar or we will get his airwrench back so BE QUIET.

[kellyn]

Another observation about 2008, I thought the best matches had plenty of real rifle shooting with targets out to roughly 400 and used the Horner scoring system.

As for knock down targets, they do eliminate "the unholy relationship between shooter and RO" (phrase attriibutted to the other Miller boy) so often commented upon. This is a good thing. However, most clubs cannot afford Larues and many have MGM swingers so I expect we will continue to see their use for quite some time. They do their job fairly well.

As for iron sights, MOST matches do not go out of their way to make targets irons sight friendly. Some do. The plastic backing used at Ft. Benning for some stages make irons much easier. Of course, bright backing behind targets certainly undermines the concept of practical shooting! I suspect that the biggest factor in the decline of iron sight shooting is that 1) they are more substantially difficult to master, 2) most shooters simply want to use scopes of which there are many good models now available and 3) iron sights are much more susceptible to changes in shooting conditions.

I don't care for bonus targets.

I'm not for some arbitrary maximum distance but match directors should realize that most shooters are not capable of effectively engaging targets past 200 or 300 yards but I thought the rifle stages at RM3G were quite good, maximizing the use of terrain. Why have a match at Raton and not shoot far targets?

[fastshooter03]

The match that seemed to be set up for the masses was DPMS Trigun, it was simple except for one part on a stage with flying birds. The rifle was challenging but not ridiculous, there were some innovative use of props, and there was more than one way to shoot each stage. Each weapon skill was adequately tested and neither seemed to be favored.

I thought that was the easy shotgun stage! Not because I aced it but because you didn't half to run a marathon or up 20 flights of stairs with a 20lb Open shotgun.

Nick

[bigbrowndog]

Something I forgot to put down and really should,............of the matches i 've been to this year. All had very good things about them for the most part, and All had small little things about them that could be improved. for those of you who are wondering which matches are worth going to, they all are really. But here is my synopsis for 2008:

Tx Carbine match, was a blast, a lot of fun short to long/short range targets

High Plains Shotgun Challenge, I'm a bit biased on this one, as I'm the MD. challenging, fun, and competitive

SMM3G, this years match was a very good blend of all weapons, I just wish LR targets could get painted between squads.

Tiger Valley 3 gun, offbeat, challenging, different, RO's assigned to stages would be better.

FN/3 gun, constantly getting better, good challenges, excellent props, allowing more freestyle into the stage would be nice.

German SG championships, the entire match was indoors, WOW!! great challenging stages, and mix of ammo types.

British Open SG champs, very interesting stages, great atmosphere, fun, and very competitive

RM3G, a riflemans match, great stage designs, super friendly RO's, a good mix of weapons skills, beautiful venue.

DPMS trigun, a match for the average shooter, nothing super hard, just challenging, it lets you F.U. on your own, really good match.

ARK 3gun, a really good USPSA match, fun, challenging, very similar to DPMS, nothing hard, just challenging.

Pre FB3G, only by invitation???????

FB3G, constantly evolving, and improving, great props, great stages, excellent challenges, a very technical match.

There are some that I haven't been to BRM3G and R&R racing's will definetly be added to my list of matches in the future.

Some of the matches I've invited new shooters to and they were not prepared for what they were faced with, and were disappointed in themselves. But in true 3 gunner spirit they have vowed to return, competitors really need to know their guns and their own limitations, I'm still learning mine.

trapr

[StealthyBlagga]

Iron Sights: The primary reason that I jumped ship from Tac Iron to Tac Scope is that the prize table for Tac Iron is too sparse now that it is completely divorced from the Tac Scope table. For me, its just that simple - call me mercenary if you will. Others may not want to make this admission, but I have heard a lot of muttered dissatisfaction with this change in prize allocation, which has only happened over the last 18 months or so. Otherwise I enjoy shooting Tac Iron, and would probably be doing so today if it were not for the poor return-on-effort equation. It's unfortunate that Tac Scope has become the big gorilla in the room, and is becoming more so as other divisions decline in appeal.

[RiggerJJ]

I’ll try to take my MD hat off and just put on my competitor hat…

I attended 8 “major” 3 gun matches in ’08, and here’s some trends that kinda bother me:

Abandonment boxes

Slanting or flat, boxes for abandonment just do not work that well. Putting a long gun in a slanting box that you have to reach over and be careful about putting the muzzle in the small cup or enclosure at the bottom is just asking for a dropped firearm. Some of the slanting boxes I saw were too small for an AR with a mag in it! And they don’t seem to be able to handle extra long shotgun mag tubes very well either. Other slanting boxes for long guns could come apart if you bumped it right and were not nailed down, kinda unsafe in my book… I won’t mention how unsafe it is to put a long gun in a slanted box that already holds another long gun…especially if it is too small for just one! Some of the stages I saw actually had abandonment “places” that caused unnecessary DQs.

The flat box or table method can also be improved upon, as we have seen with shooters just going by too fast and the gun slips off onto the ground. Flat pistol boxes can cause the safety to be disengaged if the pistol is put it a certain way. Plus these may leave the gun pointing downrange, just where the shooter and RO are heading.

I think the answer here is 35 gallon rubber trash barrels for long guns, straight up and down and not tilted! (tilted ones don’t hold an extra long shotgun mag tube very well). For pistols, small oval shaped plastic bathroom trash cans are the berries! Put a 4x4x4 piece of foam rubber in the uprange bottom corner, and any pistol will fit muzzle down. Both the 35 gallon trash can and the pistol trash cans properly set up will have the abandon firearm pointed straight down, the safest position in my book. I did notice that some matches were using barrels for long guns, but please, put them on the ground without tilting them so all muzzles are pointed into the ground, and stake them down so they don’t tip over.

Choice or freestyle stages

One of my pet peeves is stages that leave no thought to the shooter. You know, the ones where everyone does the same exact thing and just turns the stage into who can run the fastest. Whatever happened to “solve the shooting puzzle”? I would like to see more stages that have choices of where to go, how to shoot the stage, and the ultimate, targets that can be engaged with your choice of firearm! Pistol/shotgun shot stages (with steel the choice targets, paper for pistol, and clays for shotgun) are the easiest ones to design this way, and they are a hoot! Some of the matches I went to this year had some choicey stages, and they were great to see and shoot!

2nd and 3rd gun carried empty only = no DQ

During multigun stages that require carrying the 2nd and/or 3rd guns, carrying them unloaded is the safest for everyone. We can agree to disagree on whether a dropped empty gun during a course of fire should be a DQ (I personally don’t think it should be), but it doesn’t take that much from the course of fire to have to load the next gun after abandoning the 1st. Pistols are usually no big deal, but what if the shooter goes prone with a loaded pistol? I don’t like looking into that barrel myself. And unslinging (or slinging) a LOADED long gun can sometimes be very scary to watch.

DQs for non safety violations

In my little world, DQs are for MAJOR safety violations. You know, breaking the 180, ADs that go over the berm or too close to shooter/RO, handling a firearm outside a safety area without an RO giving commands, etc, etc. Accidentally shooting a plate intended for shot with a slug is no more unsafe than shooting it with a pistol. Leaving a safety not engaged on an abandoned gun (if pointed down, a safe direction) to me is just a procedural violation. DON’T design/build stages with 180 traps, and be aware that not all shooters are right handed or 5 ft 10 inches tall. This sport is waaaay to expensive to participate in to send people home because of minor violations.

Small and long range steel shotgun (shot) targets

Some of the matches I went to had small steel targets that were set out at 25 plus yards, usually requiring the use of a modified or tighter choke. Fine, but what about those shooters that do not have the capability of changing chokes? Here I think is good place to put in a choice; do I put in a mod choke, stay back and get those small steel targets quickly, and take a chance on missing aerial clays in the same stage with a tight pattern, or do I use an IC choke, get closer to the small steel, and have a better chance of getting the aerial clays with a bigger pattern?

Symmetrical stages that aren’t

A couple of stages I shot were just horrible for lefties, BUT THEY LOOKED SYMMETRICAL! Target placement on the right side of a barricade that is easy for a righty, but near impossible for the lefty just ain’t cool! If you are going to make it hard for the lefty on the right side of the barricade, then do the same on the left side. Grab a piece of lath and shoulder it lefty style (if it’s a long gun stage) and try it left handed, you may be surprised how hard it is. This also comes into play when there are prone positions around a barricade right & left side. Put the fault line in a reasonable place so lefties can shoot around the right side. You guessed it, I AM left handed...

Other misc stuff

I agree on the foot fault thing, use something that you can feel with your foot like a 2x2, not a charge line (rope above ground).

The wider spreading use of yellow backers on long range rifle targets is great! I think yellow is the best color, shows up better than white, and orange is wrong because the flash cards that indicate a hit are usually bright orange…

I would like to see more aerial and moving or swinging clays in shotgun stages, heck, that’s what a shotgun is for, moving targets! (no, I am not an ace in sporting clays..) I think it gets a bit away from the speed loading trend and make the shooter learn to use the shotgun to hit stuff.

All in all, I think 2008 was a great year for 3gun. Shooters learned a lot, MDs learned a lot, ROs learned a lot, and we all had fun!

Isn’t that what it’s all about?

jj

[Morphire]

Okay I'll call myself a pre-noob at 3-gun. I'm still assembling my rifle and shotgun gear and have only observed one match (FB3G in 08) so take what I have to offer up as you will.

Has anyone looked into long range steel that used a flag as a marker for a hit? Imagine this. The target is a flash target similar to what we have now but instead of the movement of the target face backward bringing a flash card down, it releases a sear that raises a flag above the target easily showing everyone a hit. The flag could be rest using no-stretch dacron fishing line (sold inexpensively in spools of 1000y as kite line) so that you could reset the flags at the end of each shooter by simply pulling a set of strings.

I used to shoot an airgun sport called field target that had you shooting at metal silhouettes from 10 to 55 yards that fell when hit. We used this same 80lb dacron kite line to to reset the target after each hit. Some of the early designs didn't have the target face fall back all that far so it was difficult to see from 55 yards away buried in dark woods, so they rigged a flag that flipped up when the target fell. That is what gave me the idea.

All the benefit of a positive black and white hit or not hit situation without the issue of the time related to resetting a falling target. We just have to call them Morphire Poppers if they take off or something. That is assuming they haven't already been invented!

[outerlimits]

the flags at SMM 3gun a few years ago sucked...everybody got junked.

[Morphire]

the flags at SMM 3gun a few years ago sucked...everybody got junked.

Do you know who's design it was? I'd like to see what they put together. I've got an idea based on what might work to keep the mechanism free of bullet splatter and protect the reset cord from the same. It would require a calibration of sorts but basically the target is backed by a spring that must be overcome to open a sear and release a flag on a spring. When the target returns to it's normal resting place the flag can be pulled back down which reengages the sear for the next shooter. It would be interesting to see what failed to think about what might work in its place.

[benelli2]

I'm all for shooting rifle targets that get a little further out 350-400, however how to score those targets is very tough and I'm glad I don't have to make that decision. You give them too much value adn the new shooters are hosed, too little and folks just blow past them after slinging a shot, tough call. I also have seen the issues brought out above where the longest targets are not easily serviced and therefore some get hosed cause they get all the paint knocked off, or dirt/ mud splattered all over tehm or the backer falls down, not making it a fair challange against those who shot it in pristine condition. The other challenge is changing conditions, I know its beyond match control but targets beyond 400 in high winds are not the same challenge as in calm conditions, assigning high point values and having conditions change to make a target almost non hittable will possibly determine who wins the match by what conditions they shoot in. Targets out to 300 are not so bad and folks could be expected to accomplish. Not sure what the answers are just things to consider,

I'm afraid we can over engineer ourselves at some matchs trying to make the challanges and stages so great, yes the stages need to be fun, yes they need to be challenging ( I feel they should challenge the mid class shooter, speed will determine who wins in the big dogs) but they need to be accomplishable and the same for everyone, not shooting in the dark, etc

As Big Brown Dog points out most is common sense, but some is hard to see before it all starts

jc

[springy]

About this 4 moa target thingy.

at 100yds that's a 4 inch target - hardernell!

at 200 it's 8 inches - tough target

at 300 it's 12 inches, I haven't shot a match yet that used anything but 10", so 4 moa would be a little easier than they've ever been.

at 400 it's 16 inches - praise be - I would actually be able to see the target!!

About reset-able long range.

I shot the FN match last year. That's where I learned that LR rifle targets can be knock down, reset-able, and see-able. 10" plates on a rack (with some flat bar at angles to protect the mechanism) with a cord to reset. I understand the plate rack is manufactured by R&R. The plates were painted black (and when shot they stayed black!) with white plastic backing that never showed a hit. The plates were reset with cord. They could have used 1/16" or a little bigger wire rope. No stretch, no drag, no knots untie'ing. Wire rope would work out to 4 or 5 hundred yards. Expense? These are big yearly matches, they will always have the LR rifle targets, so roll the rope up after the match each year and use the same rope each year.

And at 350 yards the black target against the white backer was like it had a spotlight on it. It was absolutely crystal clear from the shooting platform, and from the viewing stand at 400 yards, and I also had no problem seeing the plates go down from the parking lot - 500 yards.

And they stayed black when hit, and they were plainly visible in the morning, the afternoon, and shadowy late afternoon.

If you're concerned about expense, you could set the 16inchers up at 400 yards, and most of the competitors would pay to practice on them - so they could wind up being free!

Hey, it was fun talking with you folks,

michael