Kyle Norris Posted August 17, 2003 Share Posted August 17, 2003 Pretty sure this has been covered before, but I can't find any post relating to it in a search. Which do you perfer for 3-Gun applications. I seem to recall in previous discussions that 20 was perfered over 16, with 18 being considered the perfect comprimise. Also, any issues with making minor, or downrange energy with 16"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Moore Posted August 17, 2003 Share Posted August 17, 2003 i think it depends on how far you have to make shots. i only have to make it 100 meters at the only local club that holds 3 gun matches, so i bought the colt match target m4 (16in barrel). however, if i was out west or anywhere that required a shot farther than 300 meters then i would go with the 20 in barrel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriss Grube Posted August 17, 2003 Share Posted August 17, 2003 The 18" is perfect. For out east here the 16 is fine. Most of the courses are 150 yds and in. I'm sure the 16 would work fine out west too. It will give up some ballistic efficiency out past 200-250 but it still comes down to the shooter's ability to put hits on paper or steel. The difference comes in to play much more in limited with the longer sight radius of the 20". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ironman Posted August 17, 2003 Share Posted August 17, 2003 I had a 20" trimmed down to 18" and re-crowned. It works very well for me in that configuration. Now as usual all I need is to achieve the equipments potential. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted August 17, 2003 Share Posted August 17, 2003 I have shot 16" & 20" AR's with standard bolt & recoil spring systems, and with the JP Lo-mass bolt & recoil spring systems and find the 16 inchers to be a harsher rifle to shoot either way. Not harsh as in lot's of recoil, but harsh as in not smooth in recoil recovery. After the shot I find the 20" rifles exhibit a lot less "sproing" from the bolt slamming into the end of the recoil tube like a freight train. The violence of the bolt carrier travel in a 16er causes an extended period of sight dance before the next shot can be taken. I have heard that a trick lengthened gas tube (pigtail?) can fix this on the 16er but I haven't tried one set up like that so I can not put experience to this issue. The real root problem here is the fact that the gas pulse from the closer gas port location on the 16" barrel is getting to the bolt carrier earlier than it should and causing a slightly earlier unlock than desired hence the all extra violence in bolt cycling from the extremely sharp pressure pulse. An adjustable gas system will lessen this a tad on a 16, but functioning can then be a real problem if enough gas is bled off to slow the bolt down to where it doesn't reciprocate the rifle too much. My 20" JP is ready for a steady follow up shot on the same target before I am. On all of the 16's I have tried I feel I am actually waiting quite a bit for the rifle to settle down (this includes a 16" JP lo-mass bolt carrier equipped rifle). Comp or no comp, the cycling pulse is responsible for a lot of the delay in getting off accurate repeat shots on the same target. I have only heard that the 18 incher is as good as a 20 incher in this regard. BTW, I find a 20" rifle length is of no hindrance to me in any course of fire I have ever faced. I hear folks say light weight and fast handling are why they use a 16" barrel. Yet a lot of the 16" rifles I see are fitted with heavy & even bull barrels to help tame the recoil and they wind up weighing lots more than my just over 8 lb, 20" JP, and then handling like a heavily loaded barge in the fast stuff. Also, why have a rifle that can't reach out to it's full potential? As far as the PF issues go, I have never found a factory 55gr ammo that won't make minor in a 20". In the 16 inch barrel you will probably have to chrono to verify as not all ball makes minor if it doesn't burn all of the powder in the barrel (16ers make great fireworks displays in the dark because of all of the still burning powder coming out the muzzle). Another issue is the fact that a 55 grainer not doing all the speed it is capable of doesn't fly as well as it should even out to 300 yds, so wind bucking is gonna be at the low end of that projectiles envelope. Heavy bullets with their optimum powders will not work as well in a 16" tube as they will in a 20". Regards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benny hill Posted August 18, 2003 Share Posted August 18, 2003 george is right. If a 16 " was as good as a 20" ,all of us that usually make the top 10 at most of the matches would use one. Look around at what barrel lenght we use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted August 18, 2003 Share Posted August 18, 2003 http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...f=19&t=2472&hl= http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...f=19&t=2513&hl= http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...T&f=2&t=280&hl= http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...T&f=2&t=404&hl= Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B.J. Norris Posted August 18, 2003 Share Posted August 18, 2003 Thanks Eric, I knew it had been discussed before but couldn't find it. Thanks to everyone else who responded as well. (Edited to add DOH!!, wrong user logged in, appolgies to IPSC G34) Kyle Norris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellyn Posted August 20, 2003 Share Posted August 20, 2003 Back open by popular demand. Get a 20 inch barrel........................................ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucas Posted August 21, 2003 Share Posted August 21, 2003 Most of the differ in FPS between a 16" and 20" is gained before 18",and with, like my JP you will have a further out gas block for smoother operation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bear1142 Posted August 21, 2003 Share Posted August 21, 2003 Kyle, I'm definitely in the minority, but I like the 16" barrels. They still make minor relatively easily. The are more manuverable and if you use a setup like the Bushmaster Dissipator's you still get the full length sight radius. Yes, the 20" guns cycle a little smoother, but the rifle compensator helps tame and smooth that out. The only time that smoother cycling may help you is on a long range course, but your going to slow down regardless so I don't think you lose any recovery time. Where the shorter guns really shine are the up close hallway/house stages. Your transitions and movements are much faster, IMHO. Erik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Moore Posted August 21, 2003 Share Posted August 21, 2003 i shot my new colt match target m4 on tuesday. i was disappointed with the accuracy at 100yards, it was about a 6in group. at 25yds i could cover a quarter. if i have to shoot anything out to 200 yards i'm going to be screwed. i think i'll shop for a 20in top end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted August 21, 2003 Share Posted August 21, 2003 Don't call it inaccurate until you've shot match-quality bullets. Bulk 55 FMJ isn't known for its accuracy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted August 22, 2003 Share Posted August 22, 2003 Yeah, get a box of Black Hills blue box 68gr and see how it does. You'll probably be pleasantly surprised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Moore Posted August 22, 2003 Share Posted August 22, 2003 eric, rhino...should i be reloading? and if so which projectile should i try? eric...i'm going out today and buy a box of black hills blue box 68gr. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted August 22, 2003 Share Posted August 22, 2003 If you want to shoot a quantity of match-bullet ammo, you have to reload because factory match ammo is prohibitively expensive. There are a bunch of accurate bullets from 52 gr to 77 gr. You can run them through a ballistics program to find the trajectory and wind-bucking properties that suit you. I use 69 gr MatchKings with a 60-yard zero so I don't have to change my sight or hold from 60-220 yards. But in close range stages I just use 55 gr FMJ. You might find something like Black Hills 68 gr reloads would be cost-effective Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillL223 Posted August 22, 2003 Share Posted August 22, 2003 Limited 40, each rifle is different but my JP 1:9 twist prefers Sierra 52 HPBT for 100 yds and Sierra 69 @ 300. Hornady 52 and 68 are the equivalents. Some like the longer Sierra 77 and Hornady 75 but the 69s shoot better for me. All mentioned can be loaded to magazine length. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PacMan Posted August 26, 2003 Share Posted August 26, 2003 I saw it first hand last weekend at the RM3G match in Raton, a 16" AR didn't have enough to swing the heavy flash targets at 304 yds. We could hear the hits, but no flag. The 16" barrel really doesn't gain much in quickness on the open terrain courses. Get 2 , or just stay with the 20" and practice, practice, more practice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zak Smith Posted August 26, 2003 Share Posted August 26, 2003 PacMan, Do you know what bullet weight out of the 16" wasn't moving the flashers? -z Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Freeman Posted August 26, 2003 Share Posted August 26, 2003 The 55's werent moving the flash targets very well. Granted Pueblos (the ones used at Raton) are a little heavy, but more speed is always better. I shot our flash targets with 55's, 60's, 69's and 77's at 420 yards. The 69 and 77's elevated the flash card 12-16 inches. We are going to order new targets that are 3/8 thick for use past 300. The ones right now are 1/2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PacMan Posted August 26, 2003 Share Posted August 26, 2003 Thanks Tom, 'cause I shot at those "mother of all flashers" with my 20" AR and 55 grains going at 3100 fps, and they didn't swing very positively, just enough to call the hits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellyn Posted August 27, 2003 Share Posted August 27, 2003 The 150 Sierra Match King rang them just fine! Limited 40, be sure to use a scope when shooting for groups if you really want to test your rifle. Iron sights with a short radius (like the M4) make it tough to shoot groups. And remember barrel length has nothing to do with accuracy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PacMan Posted August 27, 2003 Share Posted August 27, 2003 "He-Man" had spoken!!! Congratulation on winning the RM3G He Man Division, Kelly N. !!! I might have to try it next year with my L1A1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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