Chris Conley Posted December 8, 2008 Share Posted December 8, 2008 (edited) I'm the AMD for the Kentucky State Multigun and tasked with running the prize table. Don't get me wrong I don't shoot a match for the prize table. To me it's just a bonus. That being said, I kinda get the feeling that the industry is circling their wagons. Sponsors that we have had for years are not being very responsive for next year. For example: Let's say a a shooter wins a certificate for a rifle. When are you going to get it? 2 years from now? There is nothing to give. With all the so called new bills that might be intoduced in the next year or so it gives me the feeling that the industry is going into the mode of "trying to ride the storm out". Are any of the MD's and AMD's getting that same vibe or am I way off base? Chris C. Edited December 9, 2008 by Chris Conley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe4d Posted December 9, 2008 Share Posted December 9, 2008 I say screw the prize table causes more trouble than it is worth. Lower entry fees and give out a plaque, or engraved beer mug for class/division winners. I shot a Level 2 sectional won my class and didnt even get a congratulations email. I thought it was kinda piss pour. I have only shot a couple majors and never placed in anything. For me it was kinda a big deal. No big cash/ prize awards might keep a couple of hired guns away but 99.9% of the USPSA shooters will come for a match that is well run, organized and fun stages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franklin D Wolverton Posted December 9, 2008 Share Posted December 9, 2008 Yes, we are having the same problem here in Illinois... bad thing about it is 4 MAJOR firearms companies are within 20 minutes of our range, and thus far only one has signed on... Frank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dajarrel Posted December 9, 2008 Share Posted December 9, 2008 I've never set up a match nor have I been in charge of a prize table, but one of the sponsors to the Gator Classic in Louisiana, commented in these forums on how there was a notable lack of promotion of the sponsors at most major matches. I guess I have to agree with them. You provide a prize for a little PR and other than a brief blurb in the match booklet, your donation or sponsorship goes unnoticed. I also noticed after that topic ran it's course, people seemed to become aware of how much the sponsors actually mean to a match. Let's face it, without major sponsorship, a lot of the matches wouldn't have a prize table. I like what the Ft Benning 3gun match did on the results pages for each stage. When you hit the link for that stage, you first went to a page showing the stage sponsor. Then you could go on to the results. If we want the businessmen of our sport to support our matches, we need to be sure to acknowledge that support and show our support to them with our business. fwiw dj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgunz11 Posted December 9, 2008 Share Posted December 9, 2008 I too am having some issues with the prize table for The Practical Marksman Challenge. I'm getting a lot of really great stuff, but things like the DPMS M4 we typically give away is getting a little difficult. At the 2008 match everyone got at least one trip to the prize table and most got 2. Most everything on the table was worth more than the $150 entry fee and some things many times over. This year we have 2 custom bolt action rifles we're giving away, one from GA Precision and one from Patriot Arms Inc. Getting other guns is being a PITA but I'm going to make sure they are there if I have to buy them! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bear23 Posted December 9, 2008 Share Posted December 9, 2008 (edited) I ran our 2008 sectional here in New Mexico. I didn't have a prize table. I spent the money on really well made hardwood plaques. everyone had fun, enjoyed the stages, had a good lunch. Entry fee was reasonable at 85$. I've been to matches that cost 130$+ and don't even get a free lunch... Put the money into the stages, food, and the awards. the shooters will come again if they like the match. Edited December 9, 2008 by Bear23 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted December 9, 2008 Share Posted December 9, 2008 Hi Chris, I feel your pain. Friends picked up some certs for uppers. Don't know when they'll get 'em though. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Moore Posted December 9, 2008 Share Posted December 9, 2008 Lower entry fees and give out a plaque I agree, with the economy the way it is I think lower match fee will draw in more shooters. plaques, beer mugs or ever metals (gold, silver, bornze) like Area 2 did this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted December 9, 2008 Share Posted December 9, 2008 I can't remember the match, but their trophies were flasks. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaxshooter Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 Lower entry fees and no prize table might be the smart direction to take for 09 with unemployment way up and the economy the way it is. I am sure we will see the effect on match attendance this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Cheely Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 Considering many matches don't have the *best* prizes on the table, I'd rather get a little cash, or a cheaper entry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkeeler Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 I think a cash payout could work well if it is done correctly. All classes would have a pay out. It has worked in other shooting sports mainly talking about NSSA http://www.mynssa.com/CMS/NSSADisplayPage....e%20The%20Money With a few changes to suit our sport I think it could work. As far as match fee I think they could be a little lower. BK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franklin D Wolverton Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 I'm debating changing the Illinois Sectional to a cash payout match... so much for match win, division win and class wins. 5 or more in each to receive cash... just like the plaques. Basically, if you win a plaque, you win some cash... Would be a percentage of the total entry fee's, so the more entries, the higher the prizes... Total match fee's minus expenses = prize pool. Overall Winner gets 10%, division winners get 5% and the class winners split the remaining 60%. No one gets more than one prize. If a division winner is also the overall winner, the division prize will go to the person in 2nd place in that division. Same for classes. If a class winner is also the division champion, the class prize will go to the 2nd place person in that class, ect. So if we have $2000 in the prize pool, the overall winner would get $200, the division winners would get $100 each, and the class winners (assuming that all 6 divisions had all classes qualify, except U.... sorry) would get $33.34 The match entry for the match is $75, so the overall winner and division winners would make a little bit, and the class winners would at least get half their money back. Obviously, not all classes would get the required 5 persons, so the percentage would actually go up a little bit. It's all going to depend on what I hear from the letters we are sending out... I may end up doing the cash thing, along with some prizes in the registration bags, again depending on what we hear. My budget right now is assuming that we get NO sponsors... I just don't like planning on them. Frank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Cheely Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 Overall Winner gets 10%, All good except for this. Overall is going to be Open, why pay the open winner more than the production winner? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff686 Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 (edited) I love the prize table. I usually finish high enough to have a reasonable selection. It gives me the opportunity to try things that the wife won't let me buy. If I won cash, she'd just make me take her out for dinner. (tounge in cheek) Edited December 10, 2008 by Jeff686 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wakal Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 Overall is going to be Open, why pay the open winner more than the production winner? Because they grew up and shot the only real Divison instead of artificially limiting their equipment for some perceived advantage Prize tables are a right royal pain the ass. They are a pain to "collect", a pain to set up, and a pain to run. If the sponsors don't want to give cash, then run the match as a trophy only match, reduce the match fee, and be done with it. Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcarter Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 I won a couple items this year off of blind prize matches. Those 2 items almost paid for the 6 major match entry fees I shot. Even with that, I think I like the award more than prizes. I'm not going to get rich doing this by any means. With things the way they are and the way things will be, I'm sure most of your sponsors are going to be a little hesitant to give you much. On the other hand I know a few owners of local gun shops and they are selling guns like hot cakes. It may work out the other way around in the end. My .02, If you are going to have a prize table you had better let your sponsors know what you can do for them as far as advertisment. Put a link to there sights on your web page, an ad in your match book, put up there banner at the match, offer them a spot in the vendors area, put there flyers in the shooters bags. Give them something in return for support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Moore Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 Area 8 has the best payout method, don't know if they are still doing paying, this was a few years ago. They divide the money on the amount of shooters in each division. The more shooters in the division the more money was paid out to that division. Area 2 does this for prizes. There were more guns on the open table than revolver shooters. If you're going with a payout then percentages are the only way to go. Get with somebody from Area 8. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 The Mississippi crew has a schedule (Excel?) for payouts based on participation. I believe they have shared it here before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaxshooter Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 If you are going to do a cash payout keep the portion of the entry fee money within the divisions they are shooting in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tk4 Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 I love the prize table. I usually finish high enough to have a reasonable selection. It gives me the opportunity to try things that the wife won't let me buy.If I won cash, she'd just make me take her out for dinner. (tounge in cheek) +1 A good prize table just makes the match more interesting brings out better competition which makes a win or good placement mean something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikegot38 Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 ...you had better let your sponsors know what you can do for them as far as advertisment. Put a link to there sights on your web page, an ad in your match book, put up there banner at the match, offer them a spot in the vendors area, put there flyers in the shooters bags. Give them something in return for support. As a sponsor, this is important to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XD Niner Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 (edited) I would much rather see a reasonable entry fee with the money put into the stage setups than a prize table or large cash payout match. Most of the matches that I shoot have a number of shooting schedule options. This means that many people either need to hang around the range well after they've finished shooting or return later. In many cases this can mean an extra night of hotel and meals. Generally I find it a PITA and don't bother. However, I might feel different if I were likely to receive a gun or other very valuable prize. Given the tough economy right now, just getting as many shooters to sign up for a major match as did in 2007 or even 2008 will be a huge challenge. One way to help will be to lower the entry fee by doing away with prize tables or large cash payouts. Even if the match fee is more reasonable the travel and ammo costs won't be much different. I suspect many Level 2 and 3 matches are going to see significantly fewer shooters this year. Edited December 23, 2008 by XD Niner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckbradley Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 Overall Winner gets 10%, All good except for this. Overall is going to be Open, why pay the open winner more than the production winner? I agree that the divisions need to be treated as separate matches and awarded separately, BUT based on the entries for each division. So if the open division has 50 entries and production has 20 the available money in each division changes thus the open winner would get more than the Production winner. Same if it was reversed. Also all classes should not pay the same, it should be based on the number of competitors in each class. With all the Divisions and classes we have now a cash payback is so watered down why even attempt it. If you cant pay class winners back their entry fee its not worthwhile. Just lower the fee and do plaques. Give any sponsorship donations to the RO's as a token of appreciation for their time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkeeler Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 I'm debating changing the Illinois Sectional to a cash payout match... so much for match win, division win and class wins. 5 or more in each to receive cash... just like the plaques. Basically, if you win a plaque, you win some cash...Would be a percentage of the total entry fee's, so the more entries, the higher the prizes... Total match fee's minus expenses = prize pool. Overall Winner gets 10%, division winners get 5% and the class winners split the remaining 60%. No one gets more than one prize. If a division winner is also the overall winner, the division prize will go to the person in 2nd place in that division. Same for classes. If a class winner is also the division champion, the class prize will go to the 2nd place person in that class, ect. So if we have $2000 in the prize pool, the overall winner would get $200, the division winners would get $100 each, and the class winners (assuming that all 6 divisions had all classes qualify, except U.... sorry) would get $33.34 The match entry for the match is $75, so the overall winner and division winners would make a little bit, and the class winners would at least get half their money back. Obviously, not all classes would get the required 5 persons, so the percentage would actually go up a little bit. It's all going to depend on what I hear from the letters we are sending out... I may end up doing the cash thing, along with some prizes in the registration bags, again depending on what we hear. My budget right now is assuming that we get NO sponsors... I just don't like planning on them. Frank Frank, Here is an example of what I was thinking above I also posted this in another thread. Match fee $100.00 say $50.00 goes toward match $45.00 goes to class pool and $5.00 to champion pool of that division. You have 74 total shooters in Limited Division. who ever is the division champion does not get class purse just champion purse. Champion of the Division would get $370.00 GM 7 shooters 60/40 split $189.00/$126.00 M class 9 shooters 50/30/20 split $202.50/$121.50/$81.00 A class 12 shooters 40/30/20/10 split $216.00/$162.00/$108.00/$54.00 B class 21 shooters split same as A class $378.00/$283.50/$189.00/$94.50 C class 18 shooters same split as A&b class $324.00/$243.00/$162.00/$81.00 D class 7 shooters 60/40 split $189.00/$126.00 What do you think? Like I said just a thought. The more shooters the bigger the purse. I took the number of shooters from this years Area 3 match the unclassified shooters not entered for prize money. You can move the money around anyway you want less toward class pool,more toward champion pool..... you get the idea. BK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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