Single Stack rules

[pjb45]

I was wondering how matches are weighing Single Stacks.

I believe the rules state 43 oz. But does that mean it has to weigh less than 43 oz or less than 44 oz or 43.0 exactly? Does 43. 4 meet the rule specification? What about 43.8 oz. ?

I would offer that since the accuracy of scales can vary so much that alittle flexibility would be reasonble. Anything less than 44 oz would be acceptable.

The impetus for this question was a friend and I were talking about how to get the most accurate weighing of our SS. We notice that there is a very accurate scale in the post office but decided that was probably NOT a good idea. The idea of federal prison was not all that attractive to us. We would miss too many matches.

We went into UPS/Kinkos type place. Explaining our problem to the owner was comical. Luckily we were in Mesa, the gun capital of the world. He was kind enough to weigh it on two scales.

So Gary--what would you recommend?

Gary do you think there will be a scale at SS Nationals this year?

[al503]

Given that:

1. the magazine lengths are listed as 141.25 and 171.25 (instead of 140 and 170) and,

2. 164.99 pf using the match chrono isn't major regardless of whether your personal chrono says it's 200 pf, etc.,

I'd say that 43 makes weight while 43.00000000000001 doesn't.

Just like your ammo, if you're close to the 165/ your SS is close to 43 oz, you takes your chances that the match chrono/scale doesn't agree with yours (regardless of who's is actually correct.)

All conjecture on my part, of course but it seems more reasonable than 43.8 making weight, IMHO.

Edited December 6, 2008 by al503

[steel1212]

I'm not Gary BUT: If its 43.0 your good if its 43.000001 your over, welcome to open. The flexablity is up to 43 oz. Just like al503 said.

[Gary Stevens]

The 43.0 ounces is an absolute, much like chronographing 164.999 gets you to minor, going over the 43.0 gets you Open.

I suspect we will see more scales in 2009. I hope they have check weights to veryify the accuracy of the scale. Absent a scale you will have to accept the gun at face value.

I know we have the "USPSA box" close to being available theought the USPSA store or another vendor.

[steel1212]

The 43.0 ounces is an absolute, much like chronographing 164.999 gets you to minor, going over the 43.0 gets you Open.

I suspect we will see more scales in 2009. I hope they have check weights to veryify the accuracy of the scale. Absent a scale you will have to accept the gun at face value.

I know we have the "USPSA box" close to being available theought the USPSA store or another vendor.

Gary am I safe to assume if my gun fits the IDPA box it will fit the USPSA box?

[Gary Stevens]

The IDPA box is an excellent go/no go tool. Our box is identical in two dimensions, height and depth. Our box is slightly longer in the length dimension. If your gun with empty magazine inserted fits in the IDPA box you will be good to go.

I am afraid some are going to get caught short as we continue down this road. They are forgetting that the empty magazine must be in the gun when it is placed in the box.

[Singlestack]

Ok, I'm curious. If Bomars and S&A magwells fit what are people doing to make them too big?

[Matt Cheely]

Big basepad. You have to trim a 47DE pad if you want it to fit.

[Gary Stevens]

It all has to do with the relationship between your rear sight and the basepad. The lower (shorter) one is the longer (higher) the other can be.

[Singlestack]

Got it. Could I measure my mags from the bottom of the mag catch hole to the bottom of the base pad and make a educated guess at it fitting the box?

[Matt Cheely]

You're better off at drawing a box on a piece of paper, setting your gun on it and judge by that.

[bofe954]

How are most 1911's doing for weight?

My trophy match feels like it weighs a ton vs other 1911's I have felt, the SA site says it weighs 40 oz's. I can't believe a mag with a plastic base pad weighs over 3 oz...

Has anyone seen 1911's that are overweight?

I did the piece of paper thing and size wise I think I'm OK, I may buy a box to donate to my section when they come out, but I don't have access to a scale that will weigh a gun, and my goal is to shoot the SSC this year.

I was also sort of assuming the trophy match would meet the requirements...

[zhunter]

I can emphatically tell you that the Caspian non-Race frame gun does NOT make weight ( .43 0z.) unless some weight is taken out.

But, it had a SV magwell on it. IF you use the SV magwell, make sure it is the Aluminum model, otherwise it likely won't make weight.

I did a cutout from cardboard for the box size to check, and then trimmed my Wilson 47DE magazine basepads accordingly.

[JayWord]

I was wondering how matches are weighing Single Stacks.

I believe the rules state 43 oz. But does that mean it has to weigh less than 43 oz or less than 44 oz or 43.0 exactly? Does 43. 4 meet the rule specification? What about 43.8 oz. ?

I would offer that since the accuracy of scales can vary so much that alittle flexibility would be reasonble. Anything less than 44 oz would be acceptable.

The impetus for this question was a friend and I were talking about how to get the most accurate weighing of our SS. We notice that there is a very accurate scale in the post office but decided that was probably NOT a good idea. The idea of federal prison was not all that attractive to us. We would miss too many matches.

We went into UPS/Kinkos type place. Explaining our problem to the owner was comical. Luckily we were in Mesa, the gun capital of the world. He was kind enough to weigh it on two scales.

So Gary--what would you recommend?

Gary do you think there will be a scale at SS Nationals this year?

Yes. There will be a scale and a Box. No question about it.

Jay SS Nationals RM

[pjb45]

Thanks Gary, Jay.

BTW: when doing chrono, the chrono guys give the highest velocity of two measurements to the shooter. They have some pretty expensive equipment yet, the two chronos rarely have the exact same velocity. So the concept of absolutes is not really a valid reply. And as Gary suggested, I hope the check wieghts are used.

[pjb45]

Sorry about this post- I have been writing too many program specifications and reading government regulations lately. I have gone totally anal rententive.

The rule book says 43 oz., there is no decimal point. Which means a range lawyer could argue that no decimal points are allowed in the recording of the weight of the gun.

[al503]

Thanks Gary, Jay.

BTW: when doing chrono, the chrono guys give the highest velocity of two measurements to the shooter. They have some pretty expensive equipment yet, the two chronos rarely have the exact same velocity. So the concept of absolutes is not really a valid reply. And as Gary suggested, I hope the check wieghts are used.

I'm sure if they use 2 scales, they'll give you the lower figure.

[al503]

Sorry about this post- I have been writing too many program specifications and reading government regulations lately. I have gone totally anal rententive.

The rule book says 43 oz., there is no decimal point. Which means a range lawyer could argue that no decimal points are allowed in the recording of the weight of the gun.

And going with that same logic(?), because the rulebook says 'Max distance for handgun and mags from the inner belt... is 2" that 2.99" is OK because they didn't say 2."

You do realize that its not common practice in the english language to add a decimal point in the absence of an actual decimal value. Right?

[Matt Cheely]

When I dimension drawings I usually hit "suppress trailing zeros".

[ChuckS]

Sorry about this post- I have been writing too many program specifications and reading government regulations lately. I have gone totally anal rententive.

The rule book says 43 oz., there is no decimal point. Which means a range lawyer could argue that no decimal points are allowed in the recording of the weight of the gun.

Yup, you could pay your $100 arb fee and fight for the integer. But, as you point out, there is no decimal point so you really can't round down. Therefore, if you are over 43 you are 44.

later,

Chuck

[pjb45]

Good Point Matt.

Chuck, On your 43rd birthday plus one day, did you become 44? Or are you still 43?

I like the point you make about 43 being an integer and not a whole number. So it could be a reasonable agrument, by a range lawyer, that the weighing of the gun must be an integer also and not a number with a decimal.

Gary, are you groaning and moaning yet?

Actually this is a pretty good exercise. I know a lot of folks shooting single stack. Gary, if you remember I was working in KY when you brought this division to USPSA. We talked extensively about the provisional division. I went and had Virgil build me a new Single Stack just for this division.

Now that it is getting to be more popular, a lot of shooters are modifying their guns. I suspect that with certain mags, mag wells, rails, grips, and guide rods, people are going to be just over the limit or their gun will not fit in the box and not realize it.

It really is a pain in the a@#$^ss to find an accurate scale.

[Gary Stevens]

I bought a dead nuts, according to the check weight, electronic shipping scale that weighs up to 35 pounds. I believe the scale cost 35 dollars and the check weights were just a few more dollars.

Only problem I had with it was it lost it's mind the first match I took it to. I think someone pushed a wrong button or twelve and locked it up.

I need to send it back to the manufacturer to get it's mind right.

Yes I was groaning a bit.

Experience is the best teacher I have always found. Shooting Open with an 8 round 45 might be fun.

As to the age thing, I am going to be 61 until I am dragged kicking, crying, and screaming to 62. That is unless the option is not reaching 62 then I will run across the line as fast as I can.

These BE rule exercises are fun. I have heard them called mental masturbation, but I don't totally understand the concept

Edited December 17, 2008 by Gary Stevens

[Jim Norman]

From my memory of being married to a Korean for 15 years, you are one year old when you are born and you add a year each new years day. So if you are one of a set of twins and were born on December 31 just before midnight and your sibling was born just after midnight the next day, you would be Two years old and he would be one!

All that aside, When it comes to weighing your gun, Pelouze makes a very accurate scale for UPS, and the USPSA, available at most all office supply stores, not expensive.

As for leeway, if we were to allow an underage for Major, or an overage in weight, wouldn't we then have to allow the same for the box> Let's see, your gun didn't fit, but only missed by 0.0000X, so we will allow it. Yeah, that wouldn't cause problems,

We all know the standards, if you want to take ammo that chronos at 165.01 or a gun that you've weighted on teh bathroom scale at 43 ounces to a match you should "Harden the F*#% Up" and take your beating like a man. Shoot 168-170 PF, Shave your gun to 42 ounces, invest in a decent scale, or get a group at your club to buy in, we are talking about $50 or less here, and make sure you are in spec.

I for one am tired of Range Lawyers. This should be a sport that is about the shooting, not how well you can argue how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

Jim

[zhunter]

We all know the standards, if you want to take ammo that chronos at 165.01 or a gun that you've weighted on teh bathroom scale at 43 ounces to a match you should "Harden the F*#% Up" and take your beating like a man. Shoot 168-170 PF, Shave your gun to 42 ounces, invest in a decent scale, or get a group at your club to buy in, we are talking about $50 or less here, and make sure you are in spec.

I do believe that about sums it up!!

[d5357]

From my memory of being married to a Korean for 15 years, you are one year old when you are born and you add a year each new years day. So if you are one of a set of twins and were born on December 31 just before midnight and your sibling was born just after midnight the next day, you would be Two years old and he would be one!

All that aside, When it comes to weighing your gun, Pelouze makes a very accurate scale for UPS, and the USPSA, available at most all office supply stores, not expensive.

As for leeway, if we were to allow an underage for Major, or an overage in weight, wouldn't we then have to allow the same for the box> Let's see, your gun didn't fit, but only missed by 0.0000X, so we will allow it. Yeah, that wouldn't cause problems,

We all know the standards, if you want to take ammo that chronos at 165.01 or a gun that you've weighted on teh bathroom scale at 43 ounces to a match you should "Harden the F*#% Up" and take your beating like a man. Shoot 168-170 PF, Shave your gun to 42 ounces, invest in a decent scale, or get a group at your club to buy in, we are talking about $50 or less here, and make sure you are in spec.

I for one am tired of Range Lawyers. This should be a sport that is about the shooting, not how well you can argue how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

Jim

I completely agree with Jim, not that means anything to the range lawyers out there!