mwx40x40 Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 I will not voice my opinion on HM, but I would like to see some unification in 3G. Having to deal with different rules, scoring, and equipment for all the various outlaw 3G's is a crowd killer from start. I sometimes think if we all just unified under the USPSA banner on this it would be a plus. Now I know there are some issues with USPSA rules, but if we could get them worked out I would like to think we would see some unification instead of division among us 3 gunner's. Of course I guess the next question is going to be Multi Gun or 3 Gun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spd522 Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 I have been shooting HM the past few years. I use a DPMS AP4 with rifle rail so I can extend the sight radius. Remington 870 with 21" barrel and 8 +1 capacity SA Single Stack 45. Some matches alter rules some so I alter my gear to play accordingly. This includes: Using modified DPMS mags that hold 27 rds instead of 20. 1-4 power scope in a LaRue mount Benelli M1 for 8+1 capacity (or 9+1 if allowed and I blind load) Para P14- 45 if pistol capacity is 10+1 instead of 8+1. I really don't care what set of rules for HM are used. I can configure or use different gear to play and I have fun either way. I don't reload .308 yet so all my ammo is factory load. I have never and don't intend to reload shotgun so it's all factory also and not any skeet load crap. My 45 loads are 230 gr and around 175PF. It all works for me and my guns all run it fine so I don't change it. I like shooting my Para over my SS. And I like shooting my Benelli more than my 870. If I had my choice, I would take the 27 rd mags over 20s and use an optic over irons. But to me, there is something kind of unique and fun shooting a course with gear that makes things just a little more challenging. And knowing your gun and mags will only hold the legal division capacity is somewhat comforting also. Just my $.02. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 (edited) How on EARTH is "all the different equipment rules for various outlaw matches a crowd killer"??????????????????????? The "OUTLAWS" are drawing the biggest CROWDS!!!!!!!! If you don't care for the equipment differences then just shoot one type of match, or USPSA, they hardly ever fill up with entrants. BTW, did I mention I HATE POLLS!!!!!! Trapr Edited February 9, 2009 by bigbrowndog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M ammo Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 How on EARTH is "all the different equipment rules for various outlaw matches a crowd killer"???????????????????????The "OUTLAWS" are drawing the biggest CROWDS!!!!!!!! If you don't care for the equipment differences then just shoot one type of match, or USPSA, they hardly ever fill up with entrants. BTW, did I mention I HATE POLLS!!!!!! Trapr Hey Trapr,,,,,Don't they still have fire poles ,,,,,,,??? ooooooooooooooo bad thouhgt,,,,,,I'm poking out my minds eye and keeping my dollar. We go round and round about divisions, At our local club, and for local matches,, more divisions will lets people come out and participate. With what they have when they catch the bug,,, they buy what they need to play. In what division they really want to. At Larger matches, prize tables and all, I can see why more divisions are more trouble. Jim M ammo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 How many divisions are we talking about? Are the combined results valid? Do they show us what works best? Or only what works best in a particular set of circumstances? My take is that we have the following real divisions: Open: anything goes as long as s is safe. Limited (AKA Tactical Iron): Iron sights on all, Semi-auto SG OK, Comp OK on rile only. Tactical: Same as above, but one optical sighting system is allowed on Rifle Heavy Metal: Iron sights, .308 rifle, .45 pistol, comp OK on rifle only. Pump SG Trooper: Any system above, but carry all your gear all day including all ammo and lunch. Water will be re-supplied. In the event of a reshoot, you may restock only the rounds required to shoot the stage you have to reshoot. HM might be redefined or limited in many ways; round count limits, SS only, allow autoloaders and split off an Optic Rifle division. I am against different scoring where only one round is required to neutralize a target. If there is enough interest there can be multiple trooper divisions or an entire match can be trooper (NCRecon) and still have Limited, open, tactical and HM. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwx40x40 Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 How on EARTH is "all the different equipment rules for various outlaw matches a crowd killer"???????????????????????The "OUTLAWS" are drawing the biggest CROWDS!!!!!!!! If you don't care for the equipment differences then just shoot one type of match, or USPSA, they hardly ever fill up with entrants. BTW, did I mention I HATE POLLS!!!!!! Trapr Maybe Crowd Killer wasn't exactly the right term. It's just that I sometimes hear people claiming they will not attend one match or the other because of equip or rule differences.I like shooting 3G and attend various types (outlaw and USPSA). I just think its a bummer learning new rules, new scoring and correct equipement for each match. But, other than that I have fun at all of them. BTW, my favorite match of the year is an Outlaw Match:FB3G +1 I think I now hate polls too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 I often find myself rereading rules for matches due to changes or just to make sure I'm not confusing something from another match. I do not find it difficult or time consuming, I do find some of the rules "strange" and wonder why they came about, or wonder if the "right" person whined to the "right" person, to get them put into effect. Maybe its because I do shoot a variety of matches (even when it was just pistol), that I do not have a problem with it. i mean Steel Challenge, STI/AM Handgunner World shootoffs, IDPA, IPSC, USPSA, they all have different rules, different scoring, and equipment requirements. People just need to deal with it THEMSELVES or don't shoot a variety of matches, instead of trying to change things for everybody just to make it easier for themselves. Yes, we do have 2 or 3 stations that have POLES, and every year someone gets injured by using them willy nilly or without due regard for the proper intent. So see, POLES and POLLS can both be used irresponsibly. Trapr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RufDog Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 I'd like to see 10mm recognized for use in Heavy Metal/He-Man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1chota Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 I often find myself rereading rules for matches due to changes or just to make sure I'm not confusing something from another match.I do not find it difficult or time consuming, I do find some of the rules "strange" and wonder why they came about, or wonder if the "right" person whined to the "right" person, to get them put into effect. Maybe its because I do shoot a variety of matches (even when it was just pistol), that I do not have a problem with it. i mean Steel Challenge, STI/AM Handgunner World shootoffs, IDPA, IPSC, USPSA, they all have different rules, different scoring, and equipment requirements. People just need to deal with it THEMSELVES or don't shoot a variety of matches, instead of trying to change things for everybody just to make it easier for themselves. Yes, we do have 2 or 3 stations that have POLES, and every year someone gets injured by using them willy nilly or without due regard for the proper intent. So see, POLES and POLLS can both be used irresponsibly. Trapr do you mean "Poles" as in from Poland? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SinistralRifleman Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 Trooper: Any system above, but carry all your gear all day including all ammo and lunch. Water will be re-supplied. In the event of a reshoot, you may restock only the rounds required to shoot the stage you have to reshoot..... If there is enough interest there can be multiple trooper divisions or an entire match can be trooper (NCRecon) and still have Limited, open, tactical and HM. It's time for Starship Troopers: I so want to get one of these, register it as an AOW and mount guns to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon Posted May 15, 2009 Share Posted May 15, 2009 How far we have come from the orriginal intent of "He Man"!!! It was what you might want to really go into a gun fight with. 308 rifle, 12 gage shotgun and .45 pistol. At no time was Pump requiered, at no time was a 8 round restriction applied. It has morphed into the abomination of Single Stack, Pump shotgun, and 20 round limit and NO SCOPE. WTF?? I was there when Ed Rhodes came up with the idea. And My Brother was the M.D. When it was introduced at the first RM3G. Pretty soon we will be wearing big old shooting coats and have a nice little range bag/seat to hold our stuff in, and a big old glove on our hand! KurtM +1 Yes What we have now is ***He Man Light*** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sterling White Posted May 15, 2009 Share Posted May 15, 2009 Since I don't shoot in this class...well your gonna get my opinion anyway! If I shot heavy metal or "he-man" then I would want it to be something similar to what the soldiers had prior to the invention of the AR-15 (M16). Something in a 308 or larger like shooting my grandads M1 Garand. It would be really cool except for the thumbs. And shooting his old colt 1911 45 with 8 rds or something similar, and a pump shotgun. I've thought about shooting the FAL but I don't think it has the accuracy that the AR-10 platforms do. Oh yea...definitely iron sites! As a kid I saw my grandad take a big buck deer at a distance greater than 350 yards with the M1. When your in Pattons army you had to learn how to shoot. I associate heavy metal with WWII and Korean war events. I hate polls too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barrysuperhawk Posted May 17, 2009 Share Posted May 17, 2009 (edited) Damn, everybody seems to be trying to turn Heavy Metal into limited tactical. It's not about "your opportunity" to complete in another class with the "same equipment", if that were the object, then why have classes at all? The point of Heavy metal is to just like the point of single stack in USPSA, to level the playing field for a class of guns that otherwise are at a tremendous dis-advanage because of the arms race. Heavy metal is: A single stack .45, with open sights and 8 round mags. For a bonus, require a retention holster. A pump 12 Ga, max of 8 rounds, no loaders, porting or optics. no "managed recoil" slugs A .308 rifle with open sights and 20 round mags. no comp, only flashiders or plain barrels. borderline "comps" will onlt be allowed if it originally came as a military rifle configuration, e.g. the FAL short brake. If you want to "game" these specifications, go to Open, Limited or Tacticool. If you are too old to see open sights, the tacticool will welcome you. To dilute heavy metal so everyone can play defeats the purpose of having heavy metal.. I often find myself rereading rules for matches due to changes or just to make sure I'm not confusing something from another match.<snip>Trapr I don't go to nearly as many matches ar Trapr, but it seems every single match I go to has some slight variation on it's rules. I actually decided to skip a 3 gun match yesterday in ROLLA, MO *Beacause* they switched to USPSA Mulitgun rules and I didn't feel like re-configuring my whole kit just for that match. I'd like to see 10mm recognized for use in Heavy Metal/He-Man This is about the only varition of my he-man rules that I could get behind.... but it would still have to be a single stack and loaded to 175 PF. Edited May 17, 2009 by barrysuperhawk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChristianHE Posted May 17, 2009 Share Posted May 17, 2009 I was glad to see the high poll percentage of pump-only for "He man". I used to think that there wasn't much difference between pump and auto because by the time I got the muzzle back down for the next shot or make a transition I'd already pumped. Then I shot a couple 3-gun matches where there were little ports down low where I had to go prone, and little "tunnels" where I had to shoot and pump. That changed my mind right quick... I'll go skeet or birds with a pump against auto any time but not 3/muliti gun! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sterling White Posted May 21, 2009 Share Posted May 21, 2009 Took a look into the archives and found some pretty interesting discussion points regarding this same topic of discussion back in 2004: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...t=0&start=0 Kurt, Kelly, and other hitters chimed into the conversation! I think you guys are nostalgic... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CocoBolo Posted May 21, 2009 Share Posted May 21, 2009 Heavy metal should be: Single stack pistol, .45ACP 8+1 Max 12 Ga. Pump Shotgun, 6+1. .308 winchester or abov, Iron sights, 20 round max, no mag cinch, Sling attached, no comps or brakes unless they are original to that rifle. I'm on board with these, other wise shoot tactical or open. Lets don't let 3 Gun Rules get to be like Little League. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimd Posted May 22, 2009 Share Posted May 22, 2009 USPSA rules on heavy metal: (iii)b “Heavy Metal” division within the context of a USPSA multi-gun match at this time Will follow the guidelines of the newly formed Heavy Metal division in the USPSA Tournament and Appendix B1 & B2 of the Multigun rules. Handgun: Major Power Factor, Maximum of 9 rounds loaded, Max. of 8 in magazine in the case of Rule 8.1.1.2. Any Single Stack in 45 ACP that meets the SS rules allowed Don't specifically say that hi-caps aren't allowed... but from the remainder of the thread, I'm assuming they are... trying to shoot my first 3 gun match without having to buy a lot of new equipment. Is HM single stack only? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted May 22, 2009 Share Posted May 22, 2009 Handgun: Major Power Factor, Maximum of 9 rounds loaded,Max. of 8 in magazine in the case of Rule 8.1.1.2. Any Single Stack in 45 ACP that meets the SS rules allowed Don't specifically say that hi-caps aren't allowed... but from the remainder of the thread, I'm assuming they are... trying to shoot my first 3 gun match without having to buy a lot of new equipment. Is HM single stack only? That part where it say any single stack that meets SS rules means no hi-caps for USPSA Multi-Gun. Different three gun matches use different rules though. If it's IMGA you're looking to shoot, you might be okay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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