Realistic First Shot Time Expectations

[CHA-LEE]

I have searched and searched on this site and could not find any solid answers so I figured that I would start a thread with the question......

What are realistic times for drawing and firing one shot in the "A" box at 7, 15, and 25 yards? Both from surrender and relaxed at sides hand positions. In my Dry Fire practice my peak sustainable performance at 7 yards is .8 sec from hands at sides and 1.0 sec from a surrender position. If I try to push myself any faster than that it feels clunky/forced and is not very consistent. I know that I could probably carve a few more tenths off of those times by working harder at optimizing my movement and eliminating unneeded movements, but what is realistic in a competition? I would say that most of the stages I have shot only half of them require you to draw and fire at a target right at the buzzer. The other half of the time you have to draw as you move into a shooting position which to me puts less focus on ultra fast draw and more focus on getting to where you need to be faster.

I also would like to know if there is a draw time guideline based on holster type. I am currently using a Blade-Tech holster and you have to pull the pistol up about 5 inches before you can start moving it forward. This to me would obviously take more time (1 or 2 tenths?) than a race trigger guard mount style holster that allows you to instantly move the pistol forward with minimal upward movement as you grab it.

Thanks in advance for the feedback!!!

[G-ManBart]

Par times for those sorts of drills will vary pretty widely based upon the class of shooter, the size of the target and the distance. Probably any GM, regardless of what sort of gun, is going to be able to shoot an A in .8s at 7yds from both hands at sides and surrender. Getting below that is certainly possible, but I'm not sure how often it's that helpful. In a big match I'd be willing to bet that very few people go below 1.0 for a 10+yd target. 25yds will probably be a fair amount different comparing Open and everything else. If you can consistently do a 1-1.2s A at 10-15yds, you're not going to get hurt much on any stage...it doesn't hurt to be fast, but there are other areas that are a lot easier to shave off half a second rather than a tenth or a couple of hundreths that you might save on a really fast draw.

The better you get, the less a "race" holster will help you. If you see pictures or slow motion video of a really good shooter they're going to be bringing the gun straight up until it's pretty close to the point where the gun will go straight out to the target. Starting the gun moving forward, down low, right after clearing the holster will wind up being slower than bringing it way up, then almost straight out/forward. I know one GM that told me he practices drawing over a piece of string across a doorway at about the level of his chest....up high enough to clear the string and then nearly straight out to the target. Where that's handy is when you have a start with a target a 1-5yds....you can shoot well before the gun is all the way extended....no need to be looking fully through the sights when you can sort of look over the top of the gun and rely on your index. So, having to bring the gun up 5" to clear that Blade Tech isn't going to really slow you down if you're already bringing the gun up that high, and higher, anyway.

[zhunter]

Bart hit all the nails on the head, I will add a couple of things.

I am no slower out of a Kydex than a race holster.

I think that a surrender start is just as fast as a hands relaxed at sides, and is safer too. With a surrender start, it normally eliminates the "scoop" draw, which is a DQ waiting to happen.

Also, I find that Dry fire practice is great, but Live Fire times are normally a 0.1 to 0.15 slower than Dry Firing.

[JThompson]

The fastest draw I have ever had was out of Kydex. .66 to an A from 7yds. That was a DA PX4 light light light.

That said, I'll take a solid 1-1.2 all day long.

[CHA-LEE]

Thanks for the feedback guys it really helps!!! You guys rock!!!

[eerw]

Hey Charlie...

tell you the truth..my draw is pretty much the same out of kydex or a race holster..I run a pretty consistent 1.00 to 1.20 all the time..

I can get my draws down to .8 or so..but I don't push that too much..as I just strive for a smooth consistent draw from whatever start position we are given.

you are doing well...keep at it.

[Mo Hepworth]

realistically a 1.40 at 25yards DA first shot is what I can do consistantly and get an A hit. It seems slow,...but is faster than not calling that shot and having to make up that shot with a .4 split to send and extra round downrange.

Up close at 7yards I would say .9 consistantly....anything closer than 5 y I can do in .7 to .8 if I have a clean draw and am indexed on the target properly.

There are days when I have got it down to .6, but those are rare.

[Matt Griffin]

Keep it within .2 of one second either way, depending on the shot, and you're golden. In any big match, I'd estimate that there are two stages where you are drawing to a target, and that's usually after completing a monkey motion of some sort. If you really want to advance through the matches (not the classifiers) then movement and stage planning are much, much more important.

H.

[Coolduckboy]

*knock on Wood* My normal draw with hands naturally at sides is a scoop draw and haven't had a DQ yet. so not sure why it is a dq waiting to happen?

[Matt Griffin]

Because it moves the gun before the thumb is around the backstrap. With enough practice it can be safe, but it's often a speed trap for newer shooters.

H.

[zhunter]

As the saying goes, if you are scooping your draw, it is not IF you are gonna DQ, but just a matter of WHEN you are gonna DQ, and hopefully no one gets hurt when that loaded blaster hits the ground!!!

[Flexmoney]

I put CHA-LEE on a scoop from the hands at sides, just to account for the two tenths difference in his draws (lag from surrender).

I strongly recommend getting on the gun the same for all draws out of the holster...no matter what. The method that I found that is universal is the one that Burkett teaches on his DVDs

[JThompson]

Scoops Are For Ice Cream

You might do it safely 10,000 times, but it only takes once. I looked at the scoop and was using it when I first started. I marveled at the times I was getting compared to the time I had been working at it. Then I went for one and damn near lost control of the pistol and sent it downrange hot! The scoop was retired and I have never looked back. It can be done, but imho the risk outweighed the reward. I can do high 8s on close targets... that is plenty fast for me.

Edited November 15, 2008 by JThompson

[schmitz]

I put CHA-LEE on a scoop from the hands at sides, just to account for the two tenths difference in his draws (lag from surrender).

I strongly recommend getting on the gun the same for all draws out of the holster...no matter what. The method that I found that is universal is the one that Burkett teaches on his DVDs

Coming from the side.. an instant good grip and ready to rock&roll...

+1 for Matt!

[Singlestack]

Heres a few links to "scoop draw" threads.

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...ic=65175&hl

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...ic=57206&hl

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...ic=44956&hl

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...ic=34267&hl

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...ic=34267&hl

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...ic=55774&hl

[CHA-LEE]

I Don't think I am doing a "Scoop" draw from hands at sides. From hands at sides at the buzzer I move my hand up to get my thumb over the grip then move down just enough to push the beaver tail into the web of my hand then close my fingers and thumb around the pistol and start pulling upwards. Is this a "Scoop"? I can see how it might be physically faster to instantly curl your fingers and let them catch the front of the grip as you pull your hand up then wrap your thumb around the back of the grip as its coming out of the holster. But that would be pretty dangerous I would think and would probably give you an inconsistent grip. I have never tried drawing that way.

For me its more important to get the proper grip position on the back of the grip as for me this builds the foundation of my grip. If that is off to one side or another my grip is toast. So I have always worked at placing the palm of my hand and the web between my thumb and pointer finger in the correct place as I move down to grip the gun.

[Jake Di Vita]

+1 for Flex and +2 for Matt's method.

[Matt Griffin]

I Don't think I am doing a "Scoop" draw from hands at sides. From hands at sides at the buzzer I move my hand up to get my thumb over the grip then move down just enough to push the beaver tail into the web of my hand then close my fingers and thumb around the pistol and start pulling upwards. Is this a "Scoop"?

Not scoop.

I can see how it might be physically faster to instantly curl your fingers and let them catch the front of the grip as you pull your hand up then wrap your thumb around the back of the grip as its coming out of the holster. But that would be pretty dangerous I would think and would probably give you an inconsistent grip. I have never tried drawing that way.

Scoop.

For me its more important to get the proper grip position on the back of the grip as for me this builds the foundation of my grip. If that is off to one side or another my grip is toast. So I have always worked at placing the palm of my hand and the web between my thumb and pointer finger in the correct place as I move down to grip the gun.

Yes. A missed grip will cost you at minimum .3 or .4 to correct, at worst up to two seconds in relative penalties, depending on the stage HF and whether you make up the miss/Delta. As mentioned before, since there are rarely more than 15% of stages that have a draw-to-shot start, that .15 folks might make up with scoop draw adds up to .3 or .45 for the match, the same amount that a simple grip shift is going to cost you on one stage.

Get the grip, the speed will follow.

H.

[Collecting A's]

As the saying goes, if you are scooping your draw, it is not IF you are gonna DQ, but just a matter of WHEN you are gonna DQ, and hopefully no one gets hurt when that loaded blaster hits the ground!!! angry2

Manny Bragg scoops and has never been DQ'ed.

[zhunter]

As the saying goes, if you are scooping your draw, it is not IF you are gonna DQ, but just a matter of WHEN you are gonna DQ, and hopefully no one gets hurt when that loaded blaster hits the ground!!! angry2

Manny Bragg scoops and has never been DQ'ed.

YET

[Matt Griffin]

I recall a 20 year competitor, who was a GM, get his first DQ on a table draw. Minimize risk, maximize consistency.

H.

[CHA-LEE]

Once again, thanks for the great feedback. I used my new drawing skilles this past weekend at a local match and it worked great. There were only a couple of stages where we had start from a draw and fire situation but I was lucky to have both a hands at sides and a surrender situations. I had my buddy video my stages so I could check them out when I got back home. My hands at sides draw was .9 sec and my surrender draw was 1.0 sec. I know this probably isn't very fast compared to most of the fast guys here but it is a huge step forward for me given that my draw was 1.5+ sec just a week before. Making positive progress in becomeing a better shooter is always rewarding.

Oh yeah, I found a video on YouTube of the 2007 DMSC Nationals where Rob Letham, Matt Burkett and Nick Saiti doing some awesome shooting. At the end it shows both Rob and Nick doing surrender 10 yard "A" hit draws on an old style IPSC target at consistant .7 sec times

[stevepitt]

Manny Bragg scoops and has never been DQ'ed.

*****************************************

Actually, in a class I took from Manny in July this year, he mentioned he USED to scoop, but doesn't anymore.

I don't remember the exact quote he used, but he says he "snatches" the gun into the web of his hand. Because he's aggressive to the holster, then snatches the gun to the web of his hand, it kinda looks like he scoops.

The way I would describe his snatch is as the thumb comes over the top, close the fingers on the front strap. It kind of pops the gun into the web of the hand. The thumb doesn't really "roll from the side" like Burkett teaches, but I'm not sure how to describe that part. There is no perceptible pause watching Manny.

The few times I've done it "right" it really does feel like one continuous motion. I'm surprised when the support hand meets the gun so effortlessly. When I do it wrong it results in a scoop draw, so I'd say it's not necessarily a draw for a beginner.

Thanks for the thread, it reminded me of how I should be doing my draw!

Steve Pitt

[Anubis]

The way I see it is if you get your grip before pulling out of your holster, as long as its a good grip, you can pretty much rip your gun up as fast as your arms can move and you really don't have to worry about dropping it.

Right now I'm practicing my draw in two steps: Step 1: get a solid grip. Step 2: Draw and fire. Alas I don't have a timer yet so I have no idea what my times are

[Chris iliff]

I heard Matt Cheely (GM) ask the RO after a stage at the Area 5 what his 1st shot time was. I can't remember the stage, but I think the first shot was around 5 to 7 yards if I'm not mistaken. Anyways, I do remember looking at the timer and seeing .91. I took a Cheely class on movement and watched him go into the .6's on a popper at 7 yards. Consistently. Damn those GM's, damn them!