Not the way to run a match

[pspiranha]

The following is a letter I sent to the match organizers of a level 2 match I attended this year. I had been debating with myself as to whether or not to send it until I received an E-mail from the organizers touting how proud they were that out of 170+ shooters there were no DQs. Especially after I personally witnessed two occasions that should have been a DQ.

Since it is not my intent to embarass anyone I have removed all references to which match it was. However, some folks who attended this match may figure it out.

My intent here is to make it painfully obvious that ANYONE who is going to act as a Range Officer/ RM has GOT to spend some time reading the rule book!

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To: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

I just returned home from the 2008 XXXXXXXXXXX. Since this was a USPSA sanctioned Level 2 match I feel there are a number of things that you should be made aware of.

But before we get to that I would like to commend you for all the hard work you put into the match. I understand that you have very little help setting up and the amount of work required is staggering. Also you have a problem getting quality ROs. Again, I understand this.

As a former head instructor in the Navy, it was my job to critique the performance of my subordinate instructors. I guess I still slip into that mode today. I usually take up a position as near as possible to the stage officials to observe how they officiate and , who knows, perhaps learn something. As with any sport, the better you know the rules the better you can play the game.

The main thing I was unimpressed with was the poor understanding of the rules by a number of the range officers and, on three occasions, by the Range Master himself. I'll get to a few of those examples in a moment.

I arrived at the match fairly early on Friday and spent some time walking around and observing the range officers shoot the match. Since I was in squad 12 and would begin on stage 12 I naturally ended up there and watched a group of 5 ROs shoot the stage.

This was a Standards type stage consisting of 3 strings, the ususal free-style, strong hand and then weak hand routines. After the stage a shooter is then required to shoot across the chrono.

Rule 10.4.5 The last to shoot was a female RO. On the last string she was transferring the gun to her weak hand when the gun fired. Thinking (correctly) that she had DQ'd she immediately unloaded and holstered. However one of the other ROs said that it was just an inadvertant shot and didn't hit the ground within 3 feet of her so they just scored the stage as shot. This should have been a DQ, no questions asked.

After this happened I heard one of the ROs say that they should go ahead and set up the Chrono. The RO that forgave the DQ said, "Naw, we don't have to do that." He then glanced up and saw me standing there and quickly said, "Well, uh, we'll do that tomorrow". Another remarked " Yeah, sure we will" with a smirk on his face.

The only RO that I can say actually Chronoed was the one who was running stage 12. He shot it Saturday morning right before we began shooting the stage.

While I cannot say for an absolute certainty that the other ROs didn't chrono, I would pretty much bet the farm on it. There was no parade of ROs heading to stage 12 on Saturday or Sunday.

Appendix A1 shows that the Chrono is Recommended for a Level 2 match but not mandatory. Appendix C2 outlines the Chrono station proceedures. Rounds were not collected for the chrono stage and so everyone was allowed to use whatever ammo they wished. By allowing everyone to use their ammo of choice this made the chrono stage completely worthless. If the ROs were competing only among themselves then their failure to chrono is excusable. But not if they were included in the main match.

Rule 4.3.1.6 Stage X consisted of 2 poppers, 2 plates and 2 swingers. One of our squad shot it and his first shot at one of the plates scored a partial hit at 3 oclock on the plate, moving it but it failed to fall. A second shot missed and he then shot the rest of the targets.

The range officer ruled that it was a mike. I disagreed with him saying that it was a range equipment failure. He said it wasn't a "significant" hit. I then asked for the Range Master. I dug out my rule book and found the rule right after the RM had arrived and ruled in the RO's favor. However, after showing them the rule they finally relented and awarded a reshoot. I guess I have been spoiled because the RMs that I have worked for in the past can cite the rules chapter and verse.

While I cannot verify this.... I did "hear" that the same "significant hit" ruling was applied on another stage costing a couple of shooters some mikes.

Rule 8.3.7 and 10.4.3 Stage X. Our squad arrived before Squad 1 was finished, so we watched them shoot. One shooter thought he had completed the course, so he unloaded and showed clear. The RO then gave the command "If clear, hammer down and holster." At this time the competitor noticed several overlooked targets, reloaded and shot those targets. The RO with the timer then looked over at the second RO and shrugged his shoulders. The second RO stated that since he hadn't taken his hand off of the gun and the first RO hadn't said "Range is clear" that it was legal.

As a competitor, I don't believe it is up to me to run their stage or cause another competitor to be DQd. I waited until Squad 1 had cleared the area and then approached the ROs and showed them rule 8.3.7. While both took the book and read the rule neither bothered to turn to rule 10.4.3( referenced in the rule) to see that it is also a DQ.

Stage X. Rule 8.3.1.1 and 8.7.1. This stage consisted of a start box with Xs at the rear and targets located on either side of a long shooting area. One of the shooters in our group entered the box. There was no conversation between the shooter and RO. When the RO commanded "Make Ready" the shooter drew his pistol took 3 paces down range and took a sight picture on the targets to either side of the shooting area. At the VERY least the RO should have admonished the shooter to NOT do that again! The RO said nothing.

Appendix C1.7c While waiting for a group ahead of us to finish up I saw the RM arrive at the next shooting bay. Apparently he had been called for a popper calibration. He went to the shooting spot, took careful aim and fired at the popper. His bullet struck the popper approximately 3 inches above the calibration zone and it did not fall. He looked over his shoulder at someone and then took aim to fire again. From my position I couldn't tell who stopped him and told him the calibration was over and a reshoot was required. Again the RM didn't seem to know the rules.

Stage X. (Possible 5.1.11) As we prepared to begin this stage we had a shoot-through arrive. I didn't catch his name but he was slight of stature and had long black hair. When he got to the 3 targets engaged through the door we heard some "Extremely" quick doubles. Several of us looked at each other in amazement. It certainly sounded as if his gun was doubling. After the RO had scored the stage I asked to see the timer to check the split times. He had 2 consecutive split times of 0.08 seconds. However the ROs treated this as an everyday occurance. Granted I don't know this shooter but those are split times that even Jerry Miculek would be proud of. Had I been the RO, at the very least, I would have had to call the RM or MD over to inspect for an unsafe gun. BTW we heard it happen again when he shot the next stage. Appendix A3 defines Burst operation as "More than one round can be discharged on a single pull or activation of the trigger."

Rule 3.2.2 Several ROs gave the stage breifing from memory. I guess it was a good thing that we all had our own course booklets to make sure we got ALL of the relevant info.

On 2 stages the ROs were adding in things that were not in the written stage breifing.

On Stage X, the ROs stated that the shooter has to be "completely Inside" the start box, not standing with a foot "on" the start box. I asked if that was in the stage description (3.2.1 and 10.2.2) and they said , "That's how we're doing it" By this time I didn't bother showing them the rule. (10.2.1) Standing on a start box or fault line is not illegal (unless specified in the written Stage Briefing) as long as the competitor is not touching anything outside the box or line.

On stage X The RO said that the brief case can only be carried with all four fingers and thumb grasping the handle. The booklet stage description merely states, "Briefcase in weak hand". After speaking with a shooter from another squad he said they were told that they only had to start that way. This is not the way it was presented to us. This is another reason ROs are supposed to read the breifing verbatim Rule 3.2.2. The RO didn't have a stage description on hand.

On Sunday morning I again arrived early and saw the RM doing the steel calibrations. He would take his gun out of the bag, walk up to the shooting position, shoot the steel then turn around and carry his gun back up range to his bag. I'm pretty sure that safe gun handling techniques are required of the RM as well.

During the course of the match I observed several instances of shooters who , if they didn't actually "BREAK" the 180, were within a hairs breadth of doing so. Yet these actions failed to elicite even a "Muzzle" warning from the ROs.

Let me reiterate, I am not out to burn anyone and I don't have an axe to grind. But these are all things that took place within my sight and hearing. I find it hard to believe that these are the only inconsistancies that took place over these 3 days.

The reason we have a rule book and the NROI is to ensure safety and a "consistant" application of the rules throughout the entire shooting community, not just at one match. Shooters should expect the rules to be applied the same at any match they attend.

On a positive note, The stages were interesting and fun to shoot. The ROs and staff were polite and friendly.

Again, I applaude the tremendous effort it took to put on the event but your staff let you down.

David Johnson

TY54019

[AikiDale]

Welcome to the forums!

[Jman]

Welcome to the forums!

+1

Jim

[Bear23]

Are you by chance an engineer? mechanical, physical, electrical....or any other category.

[Wakal]

This was hashed out at length between the Area Director, Match Director, and those RO's with email access immediately following the match. I am not sure why old soup is being chewed in public, but here we are.

My problem with the same match was the usual problem wtih a Nationals-level scorekeeper who took six hours to get the scores finalized. Otherwise, the match director put on a very entertaining match with a prize table that far surpassed the Nationals, with stages much more involved and challenging than the Nationals...on a shoestring budget with volunteer staff.

To address one point:

Appendix A1 shows that the Chrono is Recommended for a Level 2 match but not mandatory. Appendix C2 outlines the Chrono station proceedures. Rounds were not collected for the chrono stage and so everyone was allowed to use whatever ammo they wished. By allowing everyone to use their ammo of choice this made the chrono stage completely worthless. If the ROs were competing only among themselves then their failure to chrono is excusable. But not if they were included in the main match.

I ran the Chrono in conjunction with "Standards" at that match. My direction was to be fair across the board, so I kept the shooter hot after their last string, had them slide over to the chrono, and shoot as many rounds over the machine (at their pre-declared bullet weight) as they desired. Three people went minor; one asked to have a bullet pulled to check weight (he was very minor, and was still very minor). Did that comply with the formal requirements of C2? No. Was it easier to cheat this way than it is to cheat normally on the Chrono? In my opinion, it was not as easy to cheat as it is at the Nationals. With the "collection" process, a dishonest shooter can easily select hot ammo from the "special" bag and turn it in as their normal load. I had them use ammo that was still loaded after the shooter completed a stage. And still, people didn't make major

Alex

[pspiranha]

Are you by chance an engineer? mechanical, physical, electrical....or any other category.

Nope

My training was as an electronics tech

[pspiranha]

I ran the Chrono in conjunction with "Standards" at that match. My direction was to be fair across the board, so I kept the shooter hot after their last string, had them slide over to the chrono, and shoot as many rounds over the machine (at their pre-declared bullet weight) as they desired. Three people went minor; one asked to have a bullet pulled to check weight (he was very minor, and was still very minor). Did that comply with the formal requirements of C2? No. Was it easier to cheat this way than it is to cheat normally on the Chrono? In my opinion, it was not as easy to cheat as it is at the Nationals. With the "collection" process, a dishonest shooter can easily select hot ammo from the "special" bag and turn it in as their normal load. I had them use ammo that was still loaded after the shooter completed a stage. And still, people didn't make major

Alex

Hi Alex,

I don't consider myself as overly intelligent or especially devious but after the first shooter completed the stage it was quickly plain to me how it could be cheated. ( by the way I was the first shooter on that stage.)

Stage 12 was an 18 round Virginia count stage. For a limited/open shooter one just had to put "hot" rounds in the mag first and then top it off with the powder puffs. As I recall the chrono was complete if the first round made power. And I must contradict you in that I did see a couple of shooters in our squad that immediately unloaded after shooting the stage and reloaded before the chrono.

The way we do it at our local big match is for the RM/MD or designate to go around to the various squads and retrieve rounds from the competitors magazines that are on thier belts. I'm sure that there are people out there that could still find a way around this method but it's the best we can do unless you want to start pulling people for random/surprise chronos.

I believe that the people who did go minor at your match had absolutely no idea that they were light.

I really don't want to get into a pissing match with you about this. My main intent with this post was to point out that our "volunteer" personnel need to be more cognizant of the rules. And the rules need to be applied as written. If it had just been this one thing I would never have written. But as you can see from the complete post there was a major breakdown. As I also stated, these are just those things that I personally observed.

Yes, as I said, the stages were very challenging and a blast to shoot. Otherwise I wouldn't have driven over 1300 miles round trip to attend.

David

Edited October 15, 2008 by pspiranha

[Wakal]

And I figured out how to cheat on the Chrono the first time someone explained the whole "...and then you give them some ammo, that you select out of your very own bag, without supervision of any kind..."

Not rocket science here

I had folks load and unload before the Chrono on a regular basis; it was really hard to NOT unload and show clear after the last string

As far as background goes, I'm an ex-head Air Force instructor...you know, a service not marked by 200 years of tradition unimpeded by progress, and (to quote Churchill) not part of a service marked only by "...rum, buggery, and the lash." I'm also not an engineer

This time, the chrono was intended to catch the unwary. Catching the wary is much harder, and requires actions such as you describe (the "gimme ammo!" sneak attack).

Alex

[Fullauto_Shooter]

David,

I was also an RO at the match you're discussing and from my perspective, it was well-run and a heck of a lot of fun. My own poor performance notwithstanding, I had a good time (even considering the very HOT days). The MD had a heck of a time getting RO help so we were a bit short-handed - I RO'ed Stage 1 single-handedly for the whole match. It was my first time to ever RO a large match, so I very may well have been one of the ROs you decided to critique.

To help alleviate this problem in the future, and to bring a higher level of professionalism and knowledge of the rulebook to the game - I'd suggest you consider volunteering your services as an RO at next years match. Then you too could shoot all 12 stages of fire in one day, then spend the next two days working your butt off - trying to apply the rules fairly and consistently while remaining ever focused on safety, while chasing 170 shooters over a course of fire. I'm sure the MD wouldn't turn down your offer to help.

By the way - welcome to the forums.

Edited October 16, 2008 by Fullauto_Shooter

[joseywales]

...To help alleviate this problem in the future, and to bring a higher level of professionalism and knowledge of the rulebook to the game - I'd suggest you consider volunteering your services as an RO at next years match... I'm sure the MD wouldn't turn down your offer to help.

"Be part of the solution" - good counsel.

[HoMiE]

10.4.3 only applies to final safety check. The "IF you are finished..." gives the option to the shooter to reload and reengage targets they may have missed.

5.1.11 - 5.1.6 may have been a better rule to cite and been brought up to RM.

3.2.2 - Sometimes the final WSB may have been changed from what is published in the match booklet.

[jasmap]

Welcome to the forums!

+1

[pspiranha]

To help alleviate this problem in the future, and to bring a higher level of professionalism and knowledge of the rulebook to the game - I'd suggest you consider volunteering your services as an RO at next years match. Then you too could shoot all 12 stages of fire in one day, then spend the next two days working your butt off - trying to apply the rules fairly and consistently while remaining ever focused on safety, while chasing 170 shooters over a course of fire. I'm sure the MD wouldn't turn down your offer to help.

By the way - welcome to the forums.

I have worked and ROed at our yearly 12 stage match the last 2 years and will be doing so again this year. So , yes, I do know what you describe. Like, late on Friday and the RO asks " Are you ready?" and you body is saying NO!. Been there, Done that, got several T-shirts.

My age and general health will probably preclude many more long trips to shoot a match. I wanted to shoot this one because it looked like fun. The stages were fun and I would have done better had I remembered to wear my "No Mikes" shirt.

As a Navy instructor I spent countless hours of preperation before stepping up to the podium to ensure that I was the "Subject Matter Expert". I try to bring the same ethic with me when I step in front of a group of shooters to run a COF. Keep in mind that the people who show up to a match have spent no small amount of money and time to be there. They deserve to have a safe and efficiently run match put on by knowledgable officials.

obtw, thanx to all for the welcome.

David

[sfinney]

...To help alleviate this problem in the future, and to bring a higher level of professionalism and knowledge of the rulebook to the game - I'd suggest you consider volunteering your services as an RO at next years match... I'm sure the MD wouldn't turn down your offer to help.

"Be part of the solution" - good counsel.

Yep, good advice. But Playing devil's Advocate, maybe not the most practical advice as the shooter traveled quite a distance to attend the match, and was probably just looking forward to shooting a nice, weekend match.

Having said that, pspiranha, that is a very detailed, well thought out letter, and hopefully the match organizers take heed and learn from your overall desired intent . <retracted because I misread a command above>

(I also am an ex-military instructor, and the first thing they teach us is be sure of your referenced sources when you critique someone...... its one thing to throw out rule numbers, but make sure you actually know what a rule means, not what you think it means, before you call someone out on it)

But all in all, you make a good point. Some of the matches in the Area are run fairly loosely, it has been a problem getting good ROs to help, consistently. And I'm part of the problem myself, not the solution, as I haven't shot a USPSA match all year, OR offered to help anyone out with a match.

Welcome to the forums! You've come to right place, good open civil discussion, and more importantly learning, is what its all about.

Edited October 16, 2008 by sfinney

[pspiranha]

10.4.3 only applies to final safety check. The "IF you are finished..." gives the option to the shooter to reload and reengage targets they may have missed.

The command "If Clear, Hammer Down , Holster" (8.3.7 ) had been given. "After issuance of this command, the competitor is prohibited from firing ( see Rule 10.4.3) " and then, 10.4.3....This includes any shot fired during the procedures outlined in Rule 8.3.1 and 8.3.7

5.1.11 - 5.1.6 may have been a better rule to cite and been brought up to RM.

You are right. I should have referenced thess rules instead of just the definition.

3.2.2 - Sometimes the final WSB may have been changed from what is published in the match booklet.

On one stage I asked if the change was in the WSB and was told " That's how we're doing it." And on another the RO didn't have a WSB on hand.

David

[pspiranha]

part of a service marked only by "...rum, buggery, and the lash."

Ahhh the good old days

David

[Flexmoney]

The "If Clear Hammer Down and Holster" posts were moved to the rules forum, as they deserved their own thread.

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=72481

- Admin.

[raz-0]

During the course of the match I observed several instances of shooters who , if they didn't actually "BREAK" the 180, were within a hairs breadth of doing so. Yet these actions failed to elicite even a "Muzzle" warning from the ROs.

Yeah, is "muzzle" an official command? No, it isn't. there is no rule about almost breaking the 180. At most, I would ask the shooter after the fact if they knew they were pushing 179. If the answer is yes, then everyone goes about their day. If the answer is no, I tell them they were real close to going home, and exercise appropriate caution. Plenty of experienced folks will push it to the limit, and it's not my business to interfere with their run if they haven't actually broken any rule.

As for your rant, it has lots of valid gripes if things actually occured as stated. One way to help decrease the problems is to volunteer to work the match. Because the MD only has two real choices.. get better help, or stop holding the match. If you are griping without volunteering, you are voting for the latter.

[pspiranha]

Yeah, is "muzzle" an official command? No, it isn't. there is no rule about almost breaking the 180. At most, I would ask the shooter after the fact if they knew they were pushing 179. If the answer is yes, then everyone goes about their day. If the answer is no, I tell them they were real close to going home, and exercise appropriate caution. Plenty of experienced folks will push it to the limit, and it's not my business to interfere with their run if they haven't actually broken any rule.

You are absolutely right, "Muzzle" and even "Finger" are not "official" range commands. Nowhere in the rule book does it require the RO to issue such a warning. Conversely, it does not forbid it.

As a RO my primary concern is safety. If a person is within a hairsbreadth of the 180 then they are just that close to an unsafe condition. Same thing with the trigger finger. When following a person through a stage it is not always possible to have a clear view of the shooters trigger finger.

I have never had an experienced shooter give me grief over a warning. On the other hand I have had less experienced shooters thank me for letting them know that they were getting close to a foreshortened day.

I simply hate having to issue a DQ (4 so far and 2 in a major match). If a simple warning can prevent that happening then, until the rule book forbids it, I will continue to give them when appropriate.

David

[murkish]

As respects:

"Rule 8.3.7 and 10.4.3 Stage X. Our squad arrived before Squad 1 was finished, so we watched them shoot. One shooter thought he had completed the course, so he unloaded and showed clear. The RO then gave the command "If clear, hammer down and holster." At this time the competitor noticed several overlooked targets, reloaded and shot those targets. The RO with the timer then looked over at the second RO and shrugged his shoulders. The second RO stated that since he hadn't taken his hand off of the gun and the first RO hadn't said "Range is clear" that it was legal.

As a competitor, I don't believe it is up to me to run their stage or cause another competitor to be DQd. I waited until Squad 1 had cleared the area and then approached the ROs and showed them rule 8.3.7. While both took the book and read the rule neither bothered to turn to rule 10.4.3( referenced in the rule) to see that it is also a DQ. "

I was on squad 1 and the shooter is my friend. I cannot attest to the second paragraph, but paragraph one is an accurate depiction of what happened.

Jack

[bigbrowndog]

I'm coming in late to this but,...........i personally HATE it when an RO talks to me during a course of fire, and it has happened on more than one occassion. I'm sure they thought they were helping but, when you are shooting and you hear the RO say?????????????? something. my first action is STOP, and ask what did you say!!!!

Given that, should I get a reshoot for RO interference??? I once came very very very close to unloading holstering and giving my self an UNSPORTSMANS LIKE CONDUCT PENALTY right there, because the RO said something to me while I was performing a reload to engage my last target, and I stopped, and had to ask him what he said.

If I have broken a safety regulation then stop me, if i haven't then let me continue to shoot and converse with me AFTER the COF.

180 degrees is not the same as 180.01, a finger close to the trigger is not on the trigger, and easy going laid back RO's are much better to be around than a$$holes with attitudes.

I too am an EX military master instructor, who freakin' cares,....................

trapr

Edited October 16, 2008 by bigbrowndog

[Flexmoney]

8.6.1 No assistance of any kind can be given to a competitor during a course

of fire, except that any Range Officer assigned to a stage may issue

safety warnings to a competitor at any time. Such warnings will not be

grounds for the competitor to be awarded a reshoot.

I don't call out warnings very often. When I do, they are needed and everybody on the range is likely to hear it.

Anytime I call a warning out...or even talk with a shooter after the cof...the shooter probably broke the rule and deserved a DQ, but I didn't have enough angle to be 110% sure.

[bigbrowndog]

Flex, i understand the rule. However it is one that does seem to be rather ambiguous, and could easily be the cause for shooter/RO conflict.

After reading my prior post, i can see how it may be interpreted as argumentative and aggressive, it is not meant to be. Simply it is another veiwpoint, on how VALUABLE common sense and even handedness is.

I know when I look for RO's and staff for my match the one most important quality I look for is complete compliance to my ideas. just kidding, i've asked the Napoleon complex to leave the room. Actually I want RO's to treat the shooter the way they would want to be treated, Respectfully and Fair.

trapr

[BillChunn]

I don't call out warnings very often. When I do, they are needed and everybody on the range is likely to hear it.

Unless I clearly hear STOP through my double plugged ear protection (I shoot open) then the CRO/RO is going to have to chase me down and physically stop me. The stage plan was firmly lodged in my head. It's going to be executed. Blocking out almost everything else when I'm shooting has been a major focal point for improvement.

BC

[Bunchies95]

I don't call out warnings very often. When I do, they are needed and everybody on the range is likely to hear it.

Unless I clearly hear STOP through my double plugged ear protection (I shoot open) then the CRO/RO is going to have to chase me down and physically stop me. The stage plan was firmly lodged in my head. It's going to be executed. Blocking out almost everything else when I'm shooting has been a major focal point for improvement.

BC

BC,

Can you warn people when you resurect a thread from the dead? I got through the entire thing before I realized that it was 5 years old.