Stratochief Posted July 23, 2003 Share Posted July 23, 2003 I was reading an interesting article about IDPA and it dawned on me that everytime I read about IDPA, the article basically bashes USPSA, they say IDPA is "The Real Practical Shooting Sport" words like "Equipment Race" and "Competiton Only" are always stressed like were doing it all wrong. I'm sorry, but I have a real problem with a shooting sport that openly bashes another. Is this what the "Execs" at IDPA have been reduced to? Are we as USPSA competitors so naive that we listen to every word that comes out of IDPA HQ as the truth? If anyone (In my opinion) has lost touch with reality, it is IDPA, you NEVER hear Michael Voight badmouth IDPA, why is that? I think we all know. I shoot and enjoy both sports and don't have an opinion as to which is better, but the people I shoot USPSA with never badmouth IDPA. Practical shooting to me is having a thorough understanding and application of a shooting technique. I have never read where there is a governing body about what is considered "Practical" and what is not. What is your definition of Practical Shooting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted July 23, 2003 Share Posted July 23, 2003 I don't want to start a rant about IDPA (that I don't shoot simply because I don't have time), but the IDPA vs IPSC has always puzzled me. First of all let me say that if someone is having fun at playing (remember, playing is the keyword) it, they should definitely be allowed to do it (Ok, Ok, provided everybody else's freedom is respected). But back to the thread issue: IDPA has been founded by people fed up with IPSC. I feel that, since they left, they felt compelled to give some reasons for their leaving, and the best reason they could find was to tell everybody "we are better than them because....". I wish only one thing for IDPA shooting people: I wish they could realize that, since they are going to set up and attend matches (I mean competitions among people with no real confrontation), they have already lost any kind of "practicality", transforming reality in a game (remeber the "playing" keyword?). If real practicality is what they are "really" looking for, they should routinely attend courses at Thunder Ranch or Lethal Force Institute. Everithing else is going to be a game: the mere fact that there are going to be rules is a deviation from "practical" reality. In the end I can't acceopt "a shooting sport that openly bashes another": if you like to play that way, just do it, don't deny or run down another sport just because you don't like it. my .02 worth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted July 23, 2003 Share Posted July 23, 2003 Hi guys, It's not just IDPA - many other shooting disciplines "cast stones" at IPSC shooting. For example there are people (including those at the highest levels) of ISSF (Olympic shooting events) who often describe us as "cowboys", as do some shotgunners and so on. But what do "anti-IPSC" sentiments tell me? IPSC is successful, and that gives me a warm 'n' fuzzy feeling. Am I disappointed by such nonsense? Yes, of course, because I don't think any sport should ever attempt to discredit any other sport but, for me, it's particularly disappointing when one shooting sport disparages another, in the hope that by trying to divert attention away from their shooting discipline to another, they will somehow avoid the "anti-gun" spotlight. Such a view is extremely narrow-minded. As far as I'm concerned, each to his own, and may we all grow and prosper in an atmosphere of mutual harmony and respect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garfield Posted July 23, 2003 Share Posted July 23, 2003 On some forum -I think it was GlockTalk- I saw a discussion of what is practical some time ago. Someone made a point saying that, for the sport to be practical, as in "realistic", it should have: - Reduced light conditions, - People firing back at you, - etc. (Of course he meant this as a joke) I can't remember all the items exactly anymore, but you get the point. I was ROTFLMAO when I read that list. It's a game, that's all it is. Let other people bash what they want, I won't stoop to that level. Let's all just have "fun with a gun" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julien Boit Posted July 23, 2003 Share Posted July 23, 2003 I see that kind of things not only happens in my country ! We're pretty often called cowboys by other shooters, but once they tasted IPSC, they have a completely different point of view. USPSA has did it the right way by setting up "discovering week-ends" with shooters from all kind of disciplines. As Vince said, we all are on the same boat, wether we shoot IPSC, IDPA, high power, metallic silhouettes, etc... and we must be strong against the antigun lobby, which have now became a worldwide thing , thanks to the UN French Stateman General De Gaulle once called the UN "The Thing". I think we couldn't find a better word to describe it ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted July 23, 2003 Share Posted July 23, 2003 I usually think about the UN as "the mammoth": a pachyderm really slow on the move, totally useless, that will eventually become extinct! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julien Boit Posted July 23, 2003 Share Posted July 23, 2003 mammoth had disapeared, not the UN ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted July 23, 2003 Share Posted July 23, 2003 DeGaulle, huh? I once heard a joke that, during DeGaulle's farewell dinner, a reporter from the London Times asked Mrs. DeGaulle: "What is the one thing you missed most of all when you were First Lady, but which you now hope to re-discover?". She replied: "A penis". The room went totally silent, then Mr. Degaulle leaned over and said to his wife: "The correct pronunciation is 'appiness'!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lynn jones Posted July 23, 2003 Share Posted July 23, 2003 IDPA has been founded by people fed up with IPSC.I feel that, since they left, they felt compelled to give some reasons for their leaving yes, i think this is were it all started too, and just snowballed down hill. but this isn't that uncommon. have you ever heard skeet shooter and trap shooters talk trash about each other? at my club when IDPA came about there was a good following. they would have matches twice a month, now they have a match every other month. they have no clear leadership or worker bees. when they do have a match, they use all the IPSC props, poppers, timers, etc, except targets & score sheets. they never build props or any thing else that would benift themselves or IPSC. one guy said it should be the IPSC guy should do their scoring for them. i about fell out. one other thing that bothers me is that IDPA requires membership to even shoot a club match. the USPSA doesn't. lynn jones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted July 23, 2003 Share Posted July 23, 2003 Practicality means different things to different shooters. If you are shooting some version of one of the many games avaliable, doing it safely, having fun, and breaking no laws. Go for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vluc Posted July 24, 2003 Share Posted July 24, 2003 one other thing that bothers me is that IDPA requires membership to even shoot a club match. the USPSA doesn't. I shoot IDPA as well and that always puzzled me. My scores are not submitted anywhere, i am not going after a ranking short of what i get off of the classifier, so what is the rationale for that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck D Posted July 24, 2003 Share Posted July 24, 2003 After 17 years of involvement, I can safely say there's nothing "practical" about shooting IPSC. The majority of the tactics we use WILL get you killed. After three years of IDPA involvement, I can safely say that the rules and the interp. of those rules do not allow the shooter to adapt to the surroundings and circumstances they face . That WILL get you killed as well. The best I can hope for is to learn and improve my "high speed" gun handling skills and train my mind to work in a less than perfect atmosphere. I shoot 'em both because I love to shoot...nothing more, nothing less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted July 24, 2003 Share Posted July 24, 2003 OK...we have all heard this debate a million times now. I'm going to lock this one. Feel free to message me if you'd like to have it re-opened to add some ground-breaking news. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted July 25, 2003 Share Posted July 25, 2003 I'm going to open this one back up. Let's keep the "this game vs. that game" stuff to a minimum. Let's try to answer the original question: What is your definition of Practical Shooting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Nesbitt Posted July 25, 2003 Share Posted July 25, 2003 one other thing that bothers me is that IDPA requires membership to even shoot a club match. the USPSA doesn't. I shoot IDPA as well and that always puzzled me. My scores are not submitted anywhere, i am not going after a ranking short of what i get off of the classifier, so what is the rationale for that? I just wanted to make the point that both organizations fund their organization through your dollars. USPSA charges a mission count each time you shoot as well as a membership fee and IDPA gets only your membership fees. As I have said all along, both sports are the same while they are a little different. We should support our fellow shooters or at least not run them down. Practical shooting is anything that allows you to shoot a pistol at speed. Let me modify that. Practical shooting is anything that allows you to shoot anything at speed. Don't want to leave out our fellow long gun shooters. Or archers. Should we count tomahawk throwing?? Knife throwing?? Bill Nesbitt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garfield Posted July 29, 2003 Share Posted July 29, 2003 Yesterday night I attended a Mental training Session from Saul Kirsch. At some point, he made a remark about IPSC not being "practical", and that it can never be because of the mental processes involved (or not involved if you wish). Although we did not elaborate on the subject, here's the train of thought that lies beneath this conclusion: Let's say that practical shooting is about "realistic" shooting, as in self-defense scenarios, which means dealing with situations that you are unprepared for, which means that you have to take decisions on your course of action from moment to moment. This means that you will have to be consciously thinking while "practically shooting" ("fighting for your life"). But IPSC shooting is (or should be) done subconsciously, as also Brian points out in his book. If you are consciously thinking while shooting a stage, you will be too slow. So, if you accept that "practical shooting" is like "realistic self-defense-like shooting, IPSC cannot be "practical". I found this an interesting idea and I've been thinking about it some more on the way back home and this morning on my way to work. One thing that puzzles me though, is "to what extent is real-life shooting a conscious process ?" I can imagine that a trained police offcier (or an IPSC shooter defending himself) in a gunfight is to some extent at least shooting subconscious ? Maybe I'm getting off-topic here again (sorry Flex ) and this could better be moved to some other place, but I knew of no better thread at the moment to post these thoughts. But to end with an answer to the original question: Personally, I think that "Practical Shooting" is a way of shooting that as close as possible simulates real-life scenarios. This would imply having a minimum of rules and maybe people shooting back at you. I think that in that way, paintball or so is better suited as as basis for Practical Shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted July 29, 2003 Share Posted July 29, 2003 Arvid, I think we're on the same wavelength here, but allow me to give you my views. No shooting sport is practical, because: 1) We are prepared for, and can rehearse, the challenge ahead of us (e.g. diagrams, walkthroughs etc.); 2) Nobody is shooting back at us but, if they do (e.g. paintball), we definitely get to do it again the following weekend; 3) We shoot under optimum conditions, contrary to most "real life" scenarios; 4) If we fail to shoot all targets, the only consequence is the loss of points. On the other hand, all shooting sports teach us to become familiar with our firearms, and this helps us to use them safely and instinctively in the unlikely event that we need to do so to survive a "real life" encounter. My conclusion is that, all else being equal, an active sports shooter is better equipped to face a "real life" challenge than somebody who does not regularly participate in organised competition, just like somebody who drives a car every day is probably a better driver than Miss Daisy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted July 29, 2003 Share Posted July 29, 2003 Vince, Garfield, totally agree with you on this. If I may add a consideration, I would say that whenever there is going to be a competition among shooters, there isn't any practicality. It is a simple matter of competitiveness. It is in the competitor's attitude to try to "game" the sport, thus no more room for practicality is left. Of course, as someone else said here, if I'm going to sink with a ship, I'd rather be an olimpic swimmer than a basin bather. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmittyFL Posted July 29, 2003 Share Posted July 29, 2003 Although I agree with most of the posts here and understand where everybody is coming from, let me add another twist. I was in the military a few years back, this was before I started shooting competitions. It was in a special operaitons unit, so we did a lot of shooting, and a lot of tatics training. I was just learning about IPSC and steel matches when the higher ups at our unit said they were bringing a professional shooter (civilian no less) to teach us for a week. A small group of us were selected to attend the training. Many in the group weren't to excited to have some guy we didn't know try to teach US how to shoot. When the time came, we learned this guy's name was Jerry Barnhart. I had vaguely heard of him, and I was looking forward to it, but as I said many of the guys were skeptical. He may of sensed this, or just knew it because of his training experience with tactical type units. But his opening introduction I think put all of our guys at ease and is my definition of practical shooting. He said "I have no background in the military, I've never been in law enforcement, I will not try to teach you anything about tactics. What I do do is shoot guns fast and accurate, and I'm one of the best in the world at it. Do you guys think learning to shoot faster and more accruate will aid to your training?" It was a great week, and everybody was all ears. We learned a lot and became better marksman because of it. Being able to hit what you're shooting at extremely fast.....is practical. So if you look at it from that angle, our sport is practical. Sure I understand and agree with what everybody is saying about scenario's and the guns, and all that. But the bottom line is we shoot fast and accurate. That's more than most people can say. If I was going to a gun fight, I'd take an A class or above IPSC shooter over your average cop any day of the week. My opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Sweeney Posted July 29, 2003 Share Posted July 29, 2003 I'll step in and enter a slight disagreement with Saul on the concious/subconcious matter. Coming from a martial arts background which did not include tournament fighting (Mr. Shim felt they built bad habits) gives me a different perspective. If you're in free-sparring and you are thinking about everything you do, your opponents will love you. They'll call you "Lumpy." You think about strategy. You plan tactics. But when you need to act, you act reflexively, as you have trained and drilled. Otherwise, thinking 'block' gets you struck by your opponent, as the thought comes too slowly to beat the action. If you are in a gunfight, and you are thinking through every step of every action, you'll never get a shot off, as you'll spend so much time thinking you can't act. "But in IPSC you plan a stage and then enact it." Uh-huh. And after enough stages, you have a repertoire of actions. Screw up stages and you've just practiced error-correction. My favorite example is the crusty old El Pres. You walk into a 7-11, and as you step in you realize that the three guys at the counter are robbing it. Yes, cover would be nice, but cover is seven feet and two seconds away. In two seconds you can have two hits on each of them. We can discuss which is best endlessly, but the high-speed shooting option is comforting to have. The advantage any practical shooting discipline has over departmental dicta is the dynamic adaptation to circumstances. An IPSC shooter can hang from the jungle gym bars and shoot. Being able to opens the option of selecting it. Being in the state of having had correct tactical procedures drilled into your brain does not allow for such a selection. The definition of Practical is allowing the shooter to solve the problem safely, and scoring on an open-ended system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBaneACP Posted July 29, 2003 Share Posted July 29, 2003 Hi kids; Am back in The World with a new--and fast--email address (mbane666@nedernet.net) and even less time than I had before. The television show is like some giant cosmic vacuum cleaner sucking up every spare minute! Just thought I'd jump in here with a few thought. Like Patrick, I come from a martial arts background that, for years and years, didn't include tournaments. Our main instructor got hauled back to Korea on some Olympic thing. When he came back, he said, "You fight tournaments." That ended after we all we repeatedly tossed out for "unsportsmanlike conduct." After 10 years in very high risk sports, where a bad decision will kill you very dead, I've come to agree pretty much totally with Patrick...mental flexability is the difference between living and dying when the proverbial poodle hits the fan. The two things that have taught me the most about mental flexibility (and its handmaiden, focus) are free sparring (full contact) and practical shooting. IPSC reset my concept of *time*--seconds are really really long, which means that I have time to do what needs to be done, whether it's shut off a free-flowing regulator and re-route my air supply 150 feet down in some godawful cave or tie a simple figure-8 knot is a screaming whited-out blizzard. Interesting subject. Also, on the humor side of things, I'm doing a story for HANDGUNS magazine titled: "More Ingeneous Solutions to Non-Existant Problems—IDPA Can Get You Killed!" Michael B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vincent Posted July 29, 2003 Share Posted July 29, 2003 I consider practical shooting the application of shooting equipment that one might use in a defensive situation in scenarios that mimic a situation that could happen in real life. I think that both IPSC and IDPA provide the OPPORTUNITY for practical shooting. However much of how practical either sport ends up rests on how the shooter approaches the game. Since the scoring in both sports is based on time and time is not necessarily the primary driver in tactics, then a shooter who is truely concerned with practical shooting needs to let go of the artificial scoring of the sport and just shoot to their own goals. Both IPSC and IDPA provide the framework for a shooter to show up with some gear and shoot the various shooting problems. If you aren't worried about score then you can do just about anything that stays within the limits of safety. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted July 29, 2003 Share Posted July 29, 2003 OK here's my 2 cents Practical shooting is he who shoots the fastest and most acurately walks away. Not he who stuffs his mags in his pockets after reloads, or he who doesn't use cover to shoot, you shoot the bad guy BEFORE he gets the chance to shoot at you, then you win. NO .5 second penalty for non-Alpha shots, for real you put as many shots on the target(s) as you can as fast as you can, D's count too. If there are many bad guys then you'de better be ready to rip or run. Our game is non "practical" but it will develop the skills needed if they ever need to be employed, that is shooting fast and accurate with total confidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFD Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 Fast and accurate shooting sounds practical to me. Lots of opportunity to work on basic gun handling skills as well as dealing with the occasional malfunction is also practical. I like a match where I can think for myself instead of just following instructions. Seems more practical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garfield Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 Hi Guys, Nice posts, nice discussion. I have been thinking about the conscious/subconscious thing some more and have, as I already started thinking when I posted yesterday, arrived at the conclusion that gunfights or other matches, games, whatever, are happening mostly subconscious where it comes to the basic skills involved. As a.o. Patrick pointed out. Also like the other ideas about the definition of "practical shooting". I must admit, it kinda feels like trying to define quality as in "Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance", or am I now being to philosophical ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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