tightloop Posted September 26, 2008 Share Posted September 26, 2008 Just finished talking to a guy in the cigar shop...he teaches the Israeli combat technique of shooting...condition 3 for all you 1911 puritsts...claims to be able to do a 1.84 Mozambique from the leather from condition 3....told him I would love to see him do it...he suddenly had to leave....LOL also did not know who Eric Grauffel or TGO was or even Saul Kirsch...where do these people come from????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viggen Posted September 26, 2008 Share Posted September 26, 2008 What sort of great artillery was he going to use for this 1.84 demo, Hi-Point? If it's Israeli, it must be good, right? How much for lesson? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted September 26, 2008 Author Share Posted September 26, 2008 What sort of great artillery was he going to use for this 1.84 demo, Hi-Point? If it's Israeli, it must be good, right? How much for lesson? claimed to carry either a Glock 19 or Hi Power....gets 350 a day...told him I would rather take a class from someone known like Phil Strader or Manny to name but two...he had not heard of them either..claimed not to follow US shooting because it was not real life based and the shooters probably could not perform under the pressure of the "real" thing...I had to laugh out loud...I bet TT could do a Mozambique then a reload b4 this guy got off three rounds... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjb45 Posted September 26, 2008 Share Posted September 26, 2008 Have you seen TTs shot, reload, shot on a steel popper? Way cool! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted September 26, 2008 Share Posted September 26, 2008 Ahhhh... Good to see you back online.... Mr. Sunshine... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M ammo Posted September 26, 2008 Share Posted September 26, 2008 cigar shop ninja! ???????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhgtyre Posted September 26, 2008 Share Posted September 26, 2008 Ah but does he live in the orange state of awareness? That is where the real operators dwell. -ld Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpolans Posted September 26, 2008 Share Posted September 26, 2008 cigar shop ninja! ???????? Darn, beat me to it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clown Posted September 26, 2008 Share Posted September 26, 2008 i met a guy in houston that was being taught that method. maybe his teacher is the same guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M ammo Posted September 26, 2008 Share Posted September 26, 2008 cigar shop ninja! ???????? Darn, beat me to it! I got lucky! Cigar shop Ninja,,, Finally out of the Mall,, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38supPat Posted September 26, 2008 Share Posted September 26, 2008 It was a technique taught to Isrealis, mostly because the safety on a high power (stock old style) is damn near impossible to use and it was felt it was just faster and more reliable under stress to just rack one in on the draw. Saw this years ago. I seem to remember both Jerry Barnhart and TGO were under a second for two shots on a condition three start way back at the '92 North Americans...If I recall correctly they both scored the same time and points but Jerry shot three rounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el pres Posted September 26, 2008 Share Posted September 26, 2008 What sort of great artillery was he going to use for this 1.84 demo, Hi-Point? If it's Israeli, it must be good, right? How much for lesson? claimed to carry either a Glock 19 or Hi Power....gets 350 a day...told him I would rather take a class from someone known like Phil Strader or Manny to name but two...he had not heard of them either..claimed not to follow US shooting because it was not real life based and the shooters probably could not perform under the pressure of the "real" thing...I had to laugh out loud...I bet TT could do a Mozambique then a reload b4 this guy got off three rounds... Doesnt follow U.S. shooters cause they are not about the real thing. He's right, IPSC airsoft is much more realistic !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKSNIPER Posted September 26, 2008 Share Posted September 26, 2008 Guy WAS most likely/probably a "mall ninja" type but he could possibly have been for real. They do execute techniques differently over there. We had some of their bomb squad guys come to us for a visit and it was good to hear their way of doing things. When one of our guys said something to the effect of how we'd never be able to do it theri way here he said that once we had a couple car bombs blow up in shopping malls or supermarkets the rules would change. Got real quiet in the room. I know their favorite pistol technique was to always shoot pairs/double taps every time they pull the trigger. Can't see them training in mozambique unless its a modified version of 2 to the body and 2 to the head. JK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anon Posted September 26, 2008 Share Posted September 26, 2008 What sort of great artillery was he going to use for this 1.84 demo, Hi-Point? If it's Israeli, it must be good, right? ...... I'm confused by this statement. Hi-Point's are US made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waynewal Posted September 27, 2008 Share Posted September 27, 2008 It was a technique taught to Isrealis, mostly because the safety on a high power (stock old style) is damn near impossible to use and it was felt it was just faster and more reliable under stress to just rack one in on the draw. Saw this years ago.I seem to remember both Jerry Barnhart and TGO were under a second for two shots on a condition three start way back at the '92 North Americans...If I recall correctly they both scored the same time and points but Jerry shot three rounds. regardless, some way cool videos on youtube! Wayne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revchuck Posted September 27, 2008 Share Posted September 27, 2008 The version I've heard is that the Israelis have had to, in the past, use any handguns they could scrounge, including some made in Germany at the end of WWII which were "iffy" in terms of safety function. They therefore required all handguns to be carried in condition 3 at all times. They developed their techniques back then on that basis. They still teach the techniques developed in the 50s as state of the art, and because of the reputation they've earned as warfighters, some folks think that the Israeli method is still high speed. It's not surprising that they've never heard of the famous competitive shooters we know. They don't shoot in competition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted September 27, 2008 Author Share Posted September 27, 2008 The version I've heard is that the Israelis have had to, in the past, use any handguns they could scrounge, including some made in Germany at the end of WWII which were "iffy" in terms of safety function. They therefore required all handguns to be carried in condition 3 at all times. They developed their techniques back then on that basis. They still teach the techniques developed in the 50s as state of the art, and because of the reputation they've earned as warfighters, some folks think that the Israeli method is still high speed.It's not surprising that they've never heard of the famous competitive shooters we know. They don't shoot in competition. Pat: this guy was neither The Burner nor was he TGO in disguise, and from just listening to him talk for 20 or so minutes, I had serious doubts that he could do a Mozambique from condition 3 in under 2 sec. I do not doubt that the two mentioned in the first sentence could do it, but few of us have their talents... Perhaps the last bastion of maleness, the cigar shop has now become the last bastion of the infamous Mall Ninja...although it is hard to look the part in chino pants and a black T shirt with foreign writing on it that noone can read or understand, while talking shit and clutching a Padrone Churchill in his gun hand... It just makes me nuts to listen to people who are so obviously full of stuff, and then when you question them on the least little point they take umbridge and then jump into the truck and hightail it...came out with all kinds of stuff, like he preferred the Glock 19 with the 32 round mag for doing house to house searches...he did not look like he had done many of them with a 2" dunlap over his already large belt, and a chicken wattle neck, but I'm a 100 yrs old what do I know... As far as not knowing the top shooters, you don't have to be a shooter to be aware of guys like Cooper, TGO, Grauffel...they have name recognition that exceed the boundaries of a solitary sport.... Said he trained his students to carry what they needed on a daily basis and in most urban areas that turned out to be a 9mm or 380...he asked me what I carried and I told him .45 ACP in a custom Commander...he asked why so big a gun for urban use, told him they did not make the Commander in a .46ACP...no smile, laugh, or sigh of understanding...just a cigar store ninja smirk.....just about then we got into the time factor of his shooting and he left shortly thereafter... It is just a shame that you can't go anywhere anymore that you don't run into these idiots..figured I was safe for sure at the cigar shop, but wrong again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos Posted September 27, 2008 Share Posted September 27, 2008 (edited) Guys - I think we all agree that this thread began with a typical "gun/cigar shop commando" - who claimed greatness but who could not back up his claims. That issue is settled. The guy was a blow-hard idiot. Second issue this thread has morphed into is: loaded vs. unloaded chamber carry. Which is faster? Frankly, I think this is a foolish issue to debate. In the USA and in USPSA, we are accustomed to and practiced in loaded chamber carry and competition. Its faster. Period. So, we are left asking: "why would the Israelis not carry that way?" Revchuck is right. I've been to Israel twice, I stayed in homes with them, visited the West Bank and the capitol, Jerusalem, and crossed the border into Jordan. I also visited gun shops there and talked with the people. As Revchuck pointed out, when their country was created in 1948 they had literally dozens of models of handguns being carried every single day by people speaking dozens of languages. Result? Huge losses of life and injury due to gun accidents -especially with handguns. There was only ONE answer: teach all to keep the chamber empty. Teaching someone to keep the chamber empty can be done without even speaking their language. Was there a loss of speed due to empty chamber carry? Of course. But accidental deaths went down. And training made up for much of the loss of speed (though not all). The Israelis still take their guns everywhere (and I do mean EVERYWHERE) so the potential for accidents is extreme, and in civilian areas they keep the magazines OUT of their rifles. However, I witnessed border guards with magazines in their M16s - and presumably a round in the chamber. It was the only place I saw such a thing in Israel. I believe the Isrealis have 2 policies depending on the area where they are carrying: chamber loaded in high risk areas and empty chambers for others - such as the teen-age recruits carrying their M16s around the shopping mall (which I also saw often). Empty chamber might seem like a dumb idea to most in the USA. The Israelis, however, are anything but dumb, and they have very good reasons for doing things the way they do. Can we now lay this argument to rest? Regards, D. The version I've heard is that the Israelis have had to, in the past, use any handguns they could scrounge, including some made in Germany at the end of WWII which were "iffy" in terms of safety function. They therefore required all handguns to be carried in condition 3 at all times. They developed their techniques back then on that basis. They still teach the techniques developed in the 50s as state of the art, and because of the reputation they've earned as warfighters, some folks think that the Israeli method is still high speed.It's not surprising that they've never heard of the famous competitive shooters we know. They don't shoot in competition. Pat: this guy was neither The Burner nor was he TGO in disguise, and from just listening to him talk for 20 or so minutes, I had serious doubts that he could do a Mozambique from condition 3 in under 2 sec. I do not doubt that the two mentioned in the first sentence could do it, but few of us have their talents... Perhaps the last bastion of maleness, the cigar shop has now become the last bastion of the infamous Mall Ninja...although it is hard to look the part in chino pants and a black T shirt with foreign writing on it that noone can read or understand, while talking shit and clutching a Padrone Churchill in his gun hand... It just makes me nuts to listen to people who are so obviously full of stuff, and then when you question them on the least little point they take umbridge and then jump into the truck and hightail it...came out with all kinds of stuff, like he preferred the Glock 19 with the 32 round mag for doing house to house searches...he did not look like he had done many of them with a 2" dunlap over his already large belt, and a chicken wattle neck, but I'm a 100 yrs old what do I know... As far as not knowing the top shooters, you don't have to be a shooter to be aware of guys like Cooper, TGO, Grauffel...they have name recognition that exceed the boundaries of a solitary sport.... Said he trained his students to carry what they needed on a daily basis and in most urban areas that turned out to be a 9mm or 380...he asked me what I carried and I told him .45 ACP in a custom Commander...he asked why so big a gun for urban use, told him they did not make the Commander in a .46ACP...no smile, laugh, or sigh of understanding...just a cigar store ninja smirk.....just about then we got into the time factor of his shooting and he left shortly thereafter... It is just a shame that you can't go anywhere anymore that you don't run into these idiots..figured I was safe for sure at the cigar shop, but wrong again. Edited September 27, 2008 by Carlos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted September 27, 2008 Share Posted September 27, 2008 This isin't a rebuttal, just a question. How do you guys get into a conversation about guns anywhere but a "gun store"? I have never entered into a conversation about firearms, nor had the oportunity to do so anywhere but at a "gun shop". I guess I just never would tell a person I didn't know very well that I carried or what I carried, if I did carry. I have over heard a couple of conversations over the years, but I have never interjected myself into the conversation. As for Israil...it is a different country, they do things differently there. KurtM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted September 27, 2008 Share Posted September 27, 2008 It was a technique taught to Isrealis, mostly because the safety on a high power (stock old style) is damn near impossible to use and it was felt it was just faster and more reliable under stress to just rack one in on the draw. Saw this years ago.I seem to remember both Jerry Barnhart and TGO were under a second for two shots on a condition three start way back at the '92 North Americans...If I recall correctly they both scored the same time and points but Jerry shot three rounds. You're saying three rounds, from the holster, in under one second, from a Condition Three start? Now that's darn impressive, I say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turtle Posted September 28, 2008 Share Posted September 28, 2008 I happen to know for a fact that the Israelis are not the only ones that use a condition three carry. No I can't tell you...you know what I would have to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted September 28, 2008 Share Posted September 28, 2008 Ninja aside, let's explore... We often run "two to the body, one to the head" at 8y in our local steel challenge match. Last match, me and a (USPSA)Master class shooter had 5 (of 10) runs between the two of us that were sub 1.25 seconds. I just missed another that which would have "parted the hair" of the target. Steve Anderson, Jake and I have been a good tenth or more below that. All of the above out of race holsters, fwiw. (a tenth or so?) If I could manage a 0.70 draw, then I might punch out a sub-one second. I'd then need a 0.15 split and a 0.15 transition...which, I have scored on this cof often/regularly. The other guys are better on the draw than me, but they lose a bit on the transition to the head. Ron Ankney does this same cof in sub 1.20s, with a 1911 out of a carry holster...if I recall correctly. (He had a video of it online, but the link expired, I believe.) So, we are looking at about 0.60s for the rack during presentation? Hmmmm... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted September 28, 2008 Share Posted September 28, 2008 I have watched Matt Burkett run sub-1 Mozambiques (all As) at 7 yards from condition 1 starts. Generally around .90. I've managed low 1s (1.05, 1.10-ish). I'm not saying its not possible to draw, rack and shoot three in under a second, but... I'd want to see evidence of that... Assuming two .11 splits, that'd basically be a .75 draw/rack/first-shot. Most guys (even current top Open GMs) aren't drawing that fast on anything other than a real close up wide open target - and that's without a rack. I'm not sure your memory is working, Pat Now... draw condition 3 and shoot a Moz in sub-2.0? I think that's do-able, even from carry leather, if the guy's sharp and doesn't have a shirt tucked over the holster or something... At close-ish range, anyone skilled can execute the draw and shooting in around a second to 1.25 - how long does it take you to rack the slide in the middle of draw and first shot? I'd wager it isn't going to be 3/4 of a second if you're sharp enough to execute the rest... Of course... the claimant disappeared when challenged, so maybe we can assume he's not that sharp... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Smith Posted September 29, 2008 Share Posted September 29, 2008 I have seen this, along with several other, techniques discussed as related to armed security guards in the US. The most often stated reason for a condition 3 carry was safety. In addition, if someone did get hold of your gun, they would not be immediately able to fire it and the delay would give you a chance to react. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PINMAN44 Posted September 30, 2008 Share Posted September 30, 2008 Who cares? Let the cigar shop owner say whatever he likes. The truth is, none of it matters. Walk softly, carry the big stick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now