USPSA Production Legal Guide rod and spring for G34

[Jman]

So what would you guys suggest for making my glock trigger as nice as it can be without sacrificing reliability? Polish up the stock parts?

Yep. Don't remove metal, just make 'em glow. You'll be surprised at the improvement if it's done right. What's paramount is practice. Both dry and live fire. The only THING keeping you from where you want to be in this game is you.

Be safe. Have fun.

Jim

[Singlestack]

But, but..

I thought Gaston got it right?

[Bagger02]

Hi all. I've been reading a lot, but this is my first time posting on the forum. That being said, if the information I'm looking for is already posted somewhere, please point me that way. I've searched but haven't found it.

I'm shooting a glock 34 in production division, and am thinking about replacing the guide rod and recoil spring. Does anybody know of a good combination that wont push my weight up over the "2oz over listed weight" limit.

...

I would also love to get rid of the slack-up stage in my trigger, but from what I understand you can't do that and still be legal for production. Thanks in advance for your help!

With similar mods my G34 is within weight with a stainless steel guide rod and ISMI spring, according to my postal scale. A tungsten or tungsten extended length pushes it over.

As far as the trigger, a Vanek drop-in production trigger should tighten the take up.

Curtis

Vanek trigger system rules. I installed the Classic Trigger Kit and love it.

[Rob D]

Polished up my stock connector and trigger bar with the dremel and I have to say it's smoother than it ever was with the ghost. The over-travel is slightly more, but it's nothing significant. I went ahead and ordered a LWD connector to see how I like it. Vanek kit looks nice, but it's too pricey for me at this point. I ended up swapping out my 6lb trigger return spring for a 5lb because the 6lb wouldn't let the trigger come forward far enough to engage the trigger safety after cycling. I definitely have some practice ahead of me, but I'm so hungry for improvement right now that even dry fire practice is exciting.

Edited October 5, 2008 by Rob D

[Jager1147]

But, but..

I thought Gaston got it right?

Yeah, especially with the sights.

[Jman]

Sorry for any confusion I may have caused. The intention of the "Gaston had it right" comment was in regards to the recoil spring assembly. I'm of the opinion that the original design (not manufacture necessarily) is superior. Both Jager and Glockmeister make excellent direct replacement recoil assemblies.

Jim

[Jager1147]

Sorry Jim,

I thought you were being sarcastic. I know how much Gaston dislikes aftermarket manufacturers of Glock parts. But I do twist off that front sight with pliers as soon as I get the new Glock home and replace with Dawsons. I agree with you that the stock recoil assembly will function just fine for a long, long time. I'm just the type who can't leave any of my guns all stock. Didn't mean to bust on ya dude.

[ogiebb]

i have one of Jagers polymer guide rods and am extremely happy with it..

[LarryP]

I'm shooting a glock 34 in production division, and am thinking about replacing the guide rod and recoil spring. Does anybody know of a good combination that wont push my weight up over the "2oz over listed weight" limit. So far my gun has only been modified by the addition of:

Warren Tactical Sights

Trugrip

Ghost "Rocket" 3.5# Trigger Connector

Glockmeister (Greg Wolf) has a new Tungston Guide Rod and Spring Assembly which is coming in November 08. Its under 2 oz. and Greg swares by them (this guy doesnt steer anyone wrong). Check him out.

http://www.glockmeister.com

Larry P

[M109R]

But guys the stock connector is a leaf spring, so buy the rules a spring is a spring regardless coil or leaf. That would lead me to think it would be ok to buy the rules to change the connector because it is a spring.

[Rob D]

That's a good point about the connector itself being a spring. I Got a response back from John A today regarding this issue.

My Question:

Dear NROI,

To what extent can one modify and/or replace the internal parts of a production legal pistol? I'm currently shooting a glock 34 that's almost bone stock, but shot next to a guy at my last match that had replaced his trigger housing with one that has an over-travel adjustment, he had bent his trigger bar so that the pretravel stage of the trigger was almost completely gone(but the trigger safety did still function), and he had replaced his striker with an aftermarket product that had a small contact area with the trigger bar. This made the trigger feel like a 1911 but there were no externally visible modifications other than the fact that the trigger on his gun rested about 1/4" further back than mine does. Is this kind of modification legal in production?

Thankyou for your time,

Robbie Daugherty

A62501

John's Response

Robbie,

Sorry for the delay, but I found your email in my trash file which I normally do not look at.

If you go to www.uspsa.org and click on match rules, then scroll down to NROI rulings, click on that and there is a ruling of 1/31/06 which states Vanek Trigger in Production, there was also a ruling on the same date, that while it deals with a mag release button, the last sentence states that it cannot be modified internally to get an external enhancement. That internal vs external ruling has been retired with the 2008 rule book as Appendix D4 list the authorized modifications and is strictly limited to their stated guidelines and triggers are not one of them.

Hopes this helps, I may have to go to the BOD and discuss a trigger weight to offset this type of action if it continues.

Regards,

John Amidon

So if the internal/external ruling is no more, only swappable parts are those listed in Appendix D4? I'm legal, but I bet a LOT of people aren't.

[M109R]

That's a good point about the connector itself being a spring. I Got a response back from John A today regarding this issue.

My Question:

Dear NROI,

To what extent can one modify and/or replace the internal parts of a production legal pistol? I'm currently shooting a glock 34 that's almost bone stock, but shot next to a guy at my last match that had replaced his trigger housing with one that has an over-travel adjustment, he had bent his trigger bar so that the pretravel stage of the trigger was almost completely gone(but the trigger safety did still function), and he had replaced his striker with an aftermarket product that had a small contact area with the trigger bar. This made the trigger feel like a 1911 but there were no externally visible modifications other than the fact that the trigger on his gun rested about 1/4" further back than mine does. Is this kind of modification legal in production?

Thankyou for your time,

Robbie Daugherty

A62501

John's Response

Robbie,

Sorry for the delay, but I found your email in my trash file which I normally do not look at.

If you go to www.uspsa.org and click on match rules, then scroll down to NROI rulings, click on that and there is a ruling of 1/31/06 which states Vanek Trigger in Production, there was also a ruling on the same date, that while it deals with a mag release button, the last sentence states that it cannot be modified internally to get an external enhancement. That internal vs external ruling has been retired with the 2008 rule book as Appendix D4 list the authorized modifications and is strictly limited to their stated guidelines and triggers are not one of them.

Hopes this helps, I may have to go to the BOD and discuss a trigger weight to offset this type of action if it continues.

Regards,

John Amid

So if the internal/external ruling is no more, only swappable parts are those listed in Appendix D4? I'm legal, but I bet a LOT of people aren't.

WOW lets think about this the CZ guys are converting there guns from double action on the first shot to single action and adding a thumb safety like a 1911 with several different trigger lengths etc etc and they are bickering about a leaf spring replacement in a Glock. I wonder who is on the take on this ruling well at club matches shoot what you want and just worry about it if you are going to nationals or some other big match.

[Nik Habicht]

WOW lets think about this the CZ guys are converting there guns from double action on the first shot to single action and adding a thumb safety like a 1911 with several different trigger lengths etc etc and they are bickering about a leaf spring replacement in a Glock. I wonder who is on the take on this ruling well at club matches shoot what you want and just worry about it if you are going to nationals or some other big match.

Well, as SA guns those CZs certainly aren't legal in production.....

[VegasOPM]

I use the same Glock 17 (yes a 17) for both USPSA and IDPA. IDPA rules are a bit stricter, so my gun is pretty safe by USPSA standards. Personally I don't want to change anything about the stock Glock trigger except lightening the break and smoothing it as much as possible. That is pretty easy to do with a stock Glock 3.5# connector and a Dremel tool. I carry a Glock for my CCW, and I don't want to instill bad habits- plus my timing is already worked out on the standard Glock setup. I find that I have too many "oops, too soon" moments with a seriously lightened trigger.

[gamingoddess]

So is it safe to say that any modification of the mag release is deemed illegal in Production correct? It seems like the 2008 rule book is quite firm on what can and what can't be modified.

[Flexmoney]

So if the internal/external ruling is no more...

The "Official Interpretations" are still in effect....listed on the USPSA Rules website with current dates on them.

[BayouSlide]

So is it safe to say that any modification of the mag release is deemed illegal in Production correct? It seems like the 2008 rule book is quite firm on what can and what can't be modified.

My reading of the regs is that an OEM part, like the Glock extended mag release found on the G34, would be legal for installation on the G17, for example.

But I'm still puzzling through Mr. Amidon's take on the Vanek trigger, though...Previously, the Vanek trigger with external visible mods, trimmed safety, moved pivot point, ect., was out but the drop-in that didn't have these eternal mods was legal. That made sense to me.

Seems that the 2008 rules as he interprets them make the Vanek illegal...and he has some support from the modification rules in D4, I guess. But the wording in D4 still strikes me as the worst of all possible worlds...too vague to be specific, too specific to be vague...and that IMO is problematic.

Personally, I don't think when Charlie or anyone else adds a tiny adjustment/tuning screw to an Glock internal trigger housing, we create a cataclysmic seismic shift in the Production division.

If the powers that be want a box-stock division, make it box stock. Instead the ruling seems to say internal adjustment screw---or aftermarket connector...basically a leaf spring after all---are out, but under D4 we're free to go to town with a new slide or barrel or springs or guide rod, etc., etc., etc. Where's the logic behind this.

Seems lacking in common sense from here in the cheap seats. YMMV.

But I'm just a dumb C class Production shooter, happy with my Vanek Production trigger.

Curtis

Edited to clarify one point.

Edited November 27, 2008 by BayouSlide

[jobob]

Wow! I thought this was hashed out a year ago when the BOD was considering a trigger pull weight limit in Production. It was voted down for the '08 rules, but it looks like John is sorta going through the back door to do the same thing. Lightening a trigger has ALWAYS been legal, as long as there are no external mods and safety isn't compromised. Perhaps you guys should have left well enough alone. If you're not going to like the answer, best not ask the question. Now I'm afraid a can of worms has been opened, and our beloved 2 lb triggers will be history.

Looks like stock Glock parts only is what John is saying. The original question posed has, I'm afraid, been answered in that you can only use a Glock guide rod, since guide rods are not listed in the allowable parts list. It all make me think that Production shooters will be subject to search at major matches. All Production guns will need to be completely dissassembled to show that they are OEM. Kinda takes some of the fun out of the game. May have to go back to Limited or L10.

Rules should be explicite and should have a purpose, and should be enforceable to be effective. With all respect to Amidon (and he deserves a LOT respect for all he has done for the sport) it sounds like he's making a mountain of an imaginary mole hill. This will create lots of new work, and worries, for match officials. I just hope this gets sorted out in favor of shooters and improvement of the sport.

[Jager1147]

Looks like stock Glock parts only is what John is saying. The original question posed has, I'm afraid, been answered in that you can only use a Glock guide rod, since guide rods are not listed in the allowable parts list.

I'm just stepping into this thread, but current D4 allows you to swap the guide rod, correct?

[jobob]

Never mind what I said (what do I know, anyway). Guide rods are specifically allowed. But not the connector, I guess. I just don't understand rule makers, or interpreters.

[jobob]

And by the way: Happy Thanksgiving everyone!

[Rob D]

Never mind what I said (what do I know, anyway). Guide rods are specifically allowed. But not the connector, I guess. I just don't understand rule makers, or interpreters.

If you consider the connector a leaf spring, it would be allowed.

They really do need to make the rules more concrete. I'm going to play by the way Amidon interprets the rules, but there are so many mixed signals. The rulebook itself is very vague and requires an interpretation to form a solid set of rules. The problem is: Who's interpretation?

I'm not advocating allowing or prohibiting any specific modifications, but I don't feel like production shooters are all playing by the same set of rules and that bothers me. I originally asked John about this because I thought I had a pretty nice trigger for a production gun, then went to a match and felt the trigger on one of my dad's friend's guns and it felt like a 1911. He had put in an aftermarket striker with a slimmer contact surface, he had bent the trigger bar to eliminate the pre-travel stage, and he had installed a set screw in the back of the trigger housing to limit overtravel. I would guess it was about a 2# trigger with almost no take up or overtravel. I beat the guy, but I wanted to know if I could make MY trigger feel like that.

There needs to be a concrete set of rules that eliminate all of these grey areas and interpretations.

[LPatterson]

Never mind what I said (what do I know, anyway). Guide rods are specifically allowed. But not the connector, I guess. I just don't understand rule makers, or interpreters.

If you consider the connector a leaf spring, it would be allowed.

They really do need to make the rules more concrete. I'm going to play by the way Amidon interprets the rules, but there are so many mixed signals. The rulebook itself is very vague and requires an interpretation to form a solid set of rules. The problem is: Who's interpretation?

I'm not advocating allowing or prohibiting any specific modifications, but I don't feel like production shooters are all playing by the same set of rules and that bothers me. I originally asked John about this because I thought I had a pretty nice trigger for a production gun, then went to a match and felt the trigger on one of my dad's friend's guns and it felt like a 1911. He had put in an aftermarket striker with a slimmer contact surface, he had bent the trigger bar to eliminate the pre-travel stage, and he had installed a set screw in the back of the trigger housing to limit overtravel. I would guess it was about a 2# trigger with almost no take up or overtravel. I beat the guy, but I wanted to know if I could make MY trigger feel like that.

There needs to be a concrete set of rules that eliminate all of these grey areas and interpretations.

Be careful what you ask for as you may get the 5# trigger pull from IPSC. Especially since more attention is being paid to Production guns at the chrono.

[kamann]

Hopes this helps, I may have to go to the BOD and discuss a trigger weight to offset this type of action if it continues.

Regards,

John Amidon

Hmmm, somebody said something about opening a can of worms.

[Rob D]

I'm not so worried about trigger weight. The thing that really bothers me is the pre-travel removal. SA only guns aren't allowed in production division, and if you completely remove all the pre-travel from a glock trigger then you've essentially made it single action. Most production guns either had a slack stage in the trigger like glocks or XD's or have a DA/SA trigger that has a slack stage when firing in SA.

You can smooth out stock parts to get a 3# trigger, but you have to replace or heavily modify them to get rid of the pre-travel.