Inexperienced Shooters

[shooterready]

My belief is that it's more about attitude than being perfect or really experienced. At our "big" IDPA match of the year... we have had one guy SO a few times who invariably seems to infuriate shooters, nice guys most of em, with his incredibly arrogant and dogmatic behaviour...... On the other hand a "newer" SO who gives a shit and is not on a personal power trip usually gets his shooters through the stage with everyone still smiling.

Now that I've said that... I too have a low tolerance for bullshit and sometimes it's hard to keep smiling when you run into one of "those" SO/ROs....

Amen Brother!!!! I ran into the same thing at our BIG match last weekend. But, I've also been accused of being a whiner.

[DonT]

Not to be argumentative but what if the ro's say they only want to run experienced shooters

[lugnut]

This is where we support the sport.

You can get PO'd and bitch about them, maybe even criticize them to their faces, and they show up no more. Or, you can discuss what you believe they did wrong or not as well as they could and turn it into a positive learning experience for them.

Your choice...

Very well said. I've been a MD and I've SO'd plently. Honestly- it's the people that have a shitty attitude while I'm (or other SOs) just trying to do the best that makes me NOT want to do it anymore. No offense but there are plently of Master level shooters that will bust balls of "new" SOs to their advantage and that sucks (not saying the OP does this!).

We work for free, work hard setting up and breaking down, and do the best we can. Mistakes happen.

vluc couldn't have said it better!

[scooterj]

I've been an RO for over 14 years and I do make mistakes. If you don't agree with a call, by all means, challenge it. Many things have changed in the USPSA rule book in the last few revisions and I may have missed a couple of them. If my call is challenged, the book comes out, on the spot. If I can't find an answer to satisfy you, I'll call the RM in a heartbeat. There may be a few RO's looking to bust shooters' b@((s, but I'm not one of them.

[MichiganShootist]

but I personally haven't seen any bad Master class SO's.

Chris-- I have to disagree with you on that quote. We both saw one last week.

I'm not sure that the level of the shooter is as important as their attitude and overall experience as an SO/RO. At the match which caused this thread to be launched we had several long time shooters who are still Marksmen ...but they have been working matches for years and are quite capable to work as an SO at a major match.

We also had several Experts and one Master level shooter working the match who have terrible "Nazi like" attitudes that shouldn't be running a stage at a major match either.

To me attitude and experience are the keys.

BanjoBart who has been a very successful MD told me one time that he likes to think of the shooters as his customers...and he treats them accordingly. It's too bad that concept isn't more widely adopted.

[Greg Bell]

BanjoBart who has been a very successful MD told me one time that he likes to think of the shooters as his customers...and he treats them accordingly. It's too bad that concept isn't more widely adopted.

Mark,

I agree with Bart on that, if one keeps that in mind it will help frame our interactions on the range. I know that you and I tangled a bit at the first "major" match that I SO'd. Believe me I found no joy in that and I know that you didn't either. I learned from it in both a shooting and SO perspective and personally got burned in a similar situation this summer at a major, probably that damn karma thing kicking in

[DougCarden]

Guys, for you that dont know CSM......He is a helluva nice guy, and does help newbies all the time. Dont take his post literally as against newer shooters, or as someone that doesnt help out. That guy aint him, and he certainly doesnt need me to back him up....

Now for the other part........Volunteers are just that, and that is all we have in this sport, the shooting sports....USPSA.....IDPA....Steel Challenge....Falling steel...take your pick. I am putting on a SC match on Saturday, and realize that my job is customer service. Set up the match, run it according to the rules, and make sure everyone is safe and has fun, period. Due to my job, I have to interact with people in all manners, and from all walks of life. Things bounce right off me, but remember that other match officials dont always have jobs or experience in dealing with other people in challenging situations. It is just the way it is....<self deflating emoticon on.....i make a ton of mistakes too... >

As long as this is a volunteer sport there will be officials that are in positions that, lets say....dont play to their strengths...but they are doing the best they can, and I really think at the end of the day we as competitors and customers have to realize this and act accordingly. If there are major problems it is usually not the best time at the match with a crowd to start listing off the problems with the match.

Case in point.......A lot of us attended a match in a neighboring state in which a prize table was announced. We shot the match and assumed it would be a two day match. People got motels for that next night. That afternoon they decided to call the match, and everyone was stuck with staying another night since it was too late to cancel the room. We were also told that the prize guy wasnt able to get a lot of prizes, so we were told that the prizes would be saved for another match and asked to come to that match. Needless to say.....we contacted the match staff after the match and explained our positions and our view of what happened.....Once they saw our point of view we were apologized to and to their credit I think they have modified how they run stuff now. Much better than the Frankenstine pitchfork scene that was discussed at the match.....

In summation.....Yeah, we get heartburn at matches due to calls or something else. I think we need to bring it up to the staff so they know about it and can do something about it, but how we approach the situation can make all the difference in the world to the volunteer staff that is tasked with "fixing it".......

Peace out!

DougC

[LPatterson]

When I first started reading this I was extremely upset because the tone made it sound like the shooters ability/classification was the most important consideration in how they RO. After a bit more reading and comments by the original poster it became apparent that the comments were about SO's as in IDPA so I lowered my hackles a bit because that organization is a world of it's own that I know nothing about. In USPSA there are methods of dealing with RO's whose attitude exceeds their ability. As an RO/CRO I would rate myself as a low C because at local matches I still find myself being lax and probably was at the last nationals I worked. In retrospect there were probably 2 shooters that I should have DQed or at least had some serious discussion with my CRO before allowing them to continue. Both were foreign shooters which may have subconsciously created a WTF factor that was over with before I had a chance to voice a STOP. The CRO was less than 10 feet away and he didn't say anything so I decided I must have a wrong slant on what the rule I was thinking about meant.

In my opinion the way to get some really experienced RO is to throw them in the middle of a nationals with CRO's who are willing to train them and not use them as an extra body. Working 3 Nationals has made me appreciate reading the rules as they were written and not what I thought they meant.

[CSEMARTIN]

I certainly did come across like an a_-hole. I didn't mean it that way.

I'm not talking about lower level shooters with years of experience. I'm talking about brand new people running the clock at a major. And I'm not singling out any one particular match. I've only stated my observations over a few years at multiple matches. I know of two major matches with stages run by brand new shooters. By definition, they are lower level shooters?

Mark, I understand what you're saying. Just because it says master class on his score card doesn't make him a master class shooter. The word grandbagger comes to mind. Anyway, I'm trying to cut him some slack with all the horrible personal tragedy he has endured this past year. Until Sunday, I hadn't had a problem with him.

I'd also like to point out that I'm just a B class shooter. I think I came across like I'm some kind of gift to the world of shooting. I'm just like everybody else. I enjoy the range, spending time with friends, enjoying a good stage, and I do at times tank stages miserably.

I'm starting to regret this thread. Perhaps my choice of wording could have been better.

[CSEMARTIN]

I should have left a shooter's level out of this. And I should have just referred to a person's experience level.

I apologize to anyone I may have offended.

[Flexmoney]

I should have left a shooter's level out of this. And I should have just referred to a person's experience level.

I apologize to anyone I may have offended.

atta'boy !!!

I know, it can be frustrating.

[gino_aki]

Not to be argumentative but what if the ro's say they only want to run experienced shooters

I sure hope that wasn't one of OUR RO's...

[shred]

I want my ROs to be shooters.

In fact, I think "have shot at least 1 complete match (any level) as a competitor within the past 12 months" should be a requirement.

Sadly, it isn't, there are some that haven't, and disproportionately, the ones that disappoint me are those.

[DonT]

Not to be argumentative but what if the ro's say they only want to run experienced shooters

I sure hope that wasn't one of OUR RO's...

no, no, no.

note to self; post with more clarity

[DonT]

CSEMARTIN___ I thoroughly enjoy reading all your post's. I knew what you meant (even if the wording was a little off) and sympathize with your frustration.

This was an interesting read for me as I am suppose to be in our next RO class to become an RO for our club. Yep, an inexperienced, virgin, RO. I have to say, I am a little nervous. There is so much to remember and do beyond just the range commands. The safety of everyone around relies on the quick thinking and reflexes of the RO. Will I be able to call a squib before the shooter pulls off another round? I hope so. If my mind is focused completely on the shooter and not on how I'm going to run the stage.

vluc___ you hit the nail on the head.

Ok, I need to go dig out my rule book and read it over and over until it's memorized.

Oh yeah. I am really dreading the first time I have to DQ somebody (one of my buddies)

[CSEMARTIN]

Will I be able to call a squib before the shooter pulls off another round?

DonT, great point. By the way, thank you for your kind words.

For me, calling a squib has to be done so quickly that you can't possibly think about it long enough to be comfortable yelling "stop" at a shooter. I can remember doing it twice.

I stopped a shooter recently because I heard a "poof" instead of "bang". It will cause you to have a "weird" feeling that something just isn't right. Immediately yell "stop" and don't feel bad about it. What's the worst that could happen by stopping someone. In my case, the shooter I stopped was irritated by me, but later thought about it and came to the realization that I did do the right thing.

Good Luck. I think what other's posted here about attitude is great. Your attitude will allow you to become a great RO!!

Edited September 21, 2008 by CSEMARTIN

[nwb01]

I am a "new" (EXP and B class) shooter, I have been shooting IDPA and USPSA for a couple of years. Attitude of the SO/RO AND the shooter play a huge part in how smoothly a stage goes, knowing the rules of the sport at any experience level is also key.

I have run into many situations especially shooting IDPA where the shooter and or the SO do not clearly understand the rules. As many of us IDPA shooters know, the rule book is not clearly defined on ALL situations. The interpretations of these rules vary from match to match and sometimes stage to stage. Inexperienced RO/SOs and shooters usually do not help these situations very much.

Just my .02 cents worth.

Nice seeing you last week CSEMARTIN!!

[Franklin D Wolverton]

Will I be able to call a squib before the shooter pulls off another round?

For me, calling a squib has to be done so quickly that you can't possibly think about it long enough to be comfortable yelling "stop" at a shooter. I can remember doing it twice.

I stopped a shooter recently because I heard a "poof" instead of "bang". It will cause you to have a "weird" feeling that something just isn't right. Immediately yell "stop" and don't feel bad about it. What's the worst that could happen by stopping someone. In my case, the shooter I stopped was irritated by me, but later thought about it and came to the realization that I did do the right thing.

We had this happen at a club match of ours a couple of months ago (on an all steel stage as well... wonder if we are talking about the same guy).

I was MD/RM, and happened to be on this stage at this point during my walk around. Everyone on the stage heard bang, band, bang, pfffff.... I think just about everyone, including myself and the RO yelled stop immediately, without thinking about it.

The guy ended up having a bad primer. It had a good firing pin impact, but the bullet had not moved from the case. He wanted a reshoot because he had been stopped for a squib, and he technically didn't have one (the bullet didn't leave the case). The RO said no reshoot and he appealed to me.

I didn't give him the reshoot either, as the rule (5.7.7) uses a squib as an example, not the only reason to stop someone. It was obvious that he had unsafe ammo (the good primer strike and the soot around the primer hole). He was told that if he had a second occurrence of the same problem, he would have to find some different ammo, per 5.5.5

Frank

[Nik Habicht]

Will I be able to call a squib before the shooter pulls off another round?

For me, calling a squib has to be done so quickly that you can't possibly think about it long enough to be comfortable yelling "stop" at a shooter. I can remember doing it twice.

I stopped a shooter recently because I heard a "poof" instead of "bang". It will cause you to have a "weird" feeling that something just isn't right. Immediately yell "stop" and don't feel bad about it. What's the worst that could happen by stopping someone. In my case, the shooter I stopped was irritated by me, but later thought about it and came to the realization that I did do the right thing.

We had this happen at a club match of ours a couple of months ago (on an all steel stage as well... wonder if we are talking about the same guy).

I was MD/RM, and happened to be on this stage at this point during my walk around. Everyone on the stage heard bang, band, bang, pfffff.... I think just about everyone, including myself and the RO yelled stop immediately, without thinking about it.

The guy ended up having a bad primer. It had a good firing pin impact, but the bullet had not moved from the case. He wanted a reshoot because he had been stopped for a squib, and he technically didn't have one (the bullet didn't leave the case). The RO said no reshoot and he appealed to me.

I didn't give him the reshoot either, as the rule (5.7.7) uses a squib as an example, not the only reason to stop someone. It was obvious that he had unsafe ammo (the good primer strike and the soot around the primer hole). He was told that if he had a second occurrence of the same problem, he would have to find some different ammo, per 5.5.5

Frank

Frank,

you guys got that call wrong. The shooter could have safely racked the round out and continued --- hence re-shoot......

We've kicked that around here quite a bit lately....

[Franklin D Wolverton]

If we knew for sure that is was only a blown primer and that the bullet wasn't stuck in barrel maybe... you can't take that chance however. If we let him continue and he blows up his gun (or himself) because there was a bullet stuck in the barrel then we all have a bad day.

I have seen a blown primer still have enough ummph to push a bullet into the barrel.

Any ammunition (to me) that makes any kind of noise other than bang or click is unsafe. If he pulled the trigger and it went click, then yes, he can safely chamber another round and continue one. When it goes pffff and a s**tload of smoke comes out through the ejection port... that rates a stop in my book.

#1 rule on the range is safety. Above any and all other rules.

Frank

[LPatterson]

I agree with Nik that the call was wrong not to allow the reshoot. I agree with the RO yelling STOP also as it may have in fact been a "squib". In USPSA rule 5.7.7.2 says "If the Range Officer discovers that the suspected safety problem does not exist, the competitor will be required to reshoot the stage." It doesn't say may reshoot but is required to reshoot.

I don't think a one time occurrence of ammo malfunction e.g. squib suspected or otherwise would construe unsafe ammo. But several failures to go into battery and a blown case head would be another story as happened recently at a match.

[Franklin D Wolverton]

I agree with Nik that the call was wrong not to allow the reshoot. I agree with the RO yelling STOP also as it may have in fact been a "squib". In USPSA rule 5.7.7.2 says "If the Range Officer discovers that the suspected safety problem does not exist, the competitor will be required to reshoot the stage." It doesn't say may reshoot but is required to reshoot.

I don't think a one time occurrence of ammo malfunction e.g. squib suspected or otherwise would construe unsafe ammo. But several failures to go into battery and a blown case head would be another story as happened recently at a match.

Thats the thing. The suspected safety problem DID exist... that was why no reshoot. The ammo was not removed from the match for this one instance (I won't do that for one instance... only 2 or more), but the reshoot was not allowed per the rules. The RO stopped the shooter due to a suspected safety problem, and that safety problem DID exist, so he doesn't get the reshoot.

Rule 5.7.7 uses a squib as an example, not as the only reason.

Frank

[38superman]

I took my RO test in April of last year.

I was very surprised one month later when I showed up at Area 6 and discovered one of the guys in my class was CRO on a stage.

That gentleman was an experienced competitor and just a very sharp individual.

He did what I thought was a masterful job.

Therefore, I think a lot depends on the individual.

As for me, I RO at local matches from time to time, but don't feel I have enough experience to run a stage at a major.

I took the test and did well, I studied the rule book, but there is a lot to learn.

I found that when I was a rookie shooter, my plan often went out the window when the buzzer went off.

Sometimes when things didn't go as plan I began to ad lib, operating based on instinct.

I find that RO'ing is a lot the same.

You may think you understand the rules and are well prepared until something unexpected happens and suddenly you're unsure how to react.

Now with more than a year under my belt, I would have the confidence to RO a Sectional, but I don't feel I'm ready for prime time yet.

I think the individual RO knows best when he/she is ready for something or not.

If I thought I was getting in over my head I wouldn't refuse to work a match.

However, I would ask the RM to make sure I got support when I needed it, or I might insist on being paired with a more experienced RO.

I don't think it's necessarily wrong to link shooting experience with RO competence.

If you play a game for a long time you know the rules that much better.

The only mistake would be to link shooting ability RO competence.

That is an entirely different matter.

Tls

[JThompson]

I agree with Nik that the call was wrong not to allow the reshoot. I agree with the RO yelling STOP also as it may have in fact been a "squib". In USPSA rule 5.7.7.2 says "If the Range Officer discovers that the suspected safety problem does not exist, the competitor will be required to reshoot the stage." It doesn't say may reshoot but is required to reshoot.

I don't think a one time occurrence of ammo malfunction e.g. squib suspected or otherwise would construe unsafe ammo. But several failures to go into battery and a blown case head would be another story as happened recently at a match.

Thats the thing. The suspected safety problem DID exist... that was why no reshoot. The ammo was not removed from the match for this one instance (I won't do that for one instance... only 2 or more), but the reshoot was not allowed per the rules. The RO stopped the shooter due to a suspected safety problem, and that safety problem DID exist, so he doesn't get the reshoot.

Rule 5.7.7 uses a squib as an example, not as the only reason.

Frank

If there is a squib in the barrel... no reshoot score as shot. If there isn't a bullet in the barrel it's a reshoot. One squib does not make for unsafe ammo which must be removed... if there was more than one or some other issues on top of it, like a very hot load or something I might have them pull the ammo. Squibs do happen without being a danger... who was it? One of the big dogs had a new piece of brass that didn't have a flash hole in it. He got a pop and some smoke, but no bullet in the barrel... I dunno how they handles it, but I would have yelled stop and then checked for squib... if no squib... sorry bro, reshoot.

Edited September 21, 2008 by JThompson

[Flexmoney]

There is a thread for that call, guys. Best to post on it if you want to talk on that call some more...and not drift this thread further.