defensive ammo

[racemaker]

Hope I'm not off topic - but I could not find any self defence ammo info? Does anyone have info on best defensive ammo for 9mm - 40 cal - 45acp?

[rgkeller]

Federal HST

[JakeMartens]

I really like the Hornady .45acp 200gr JHP/XTP

it is less expensive than their TAP ammo, it is not +p so it doesn't beat the gun up.

It has a very low muzzle flash also.

It groups 5 shots under right at (a little under) an inch with my fullsize Nowlin.

[superdude]

i've been recently trying the Winchester Ranger T series and Federal HST rounds. both have impressive expansion in water jugs. i'm leaning toward the Winchester T series because of the barbs on the end of the copper jacket. they would cause more damage than a bullet without them, like the HST. but one should not feel disadvantaged with the Federal, and since i haven't found a reliable source of the Winchester Ranger T for the 40, I use the Federal HST for it. both have run reliably in my guns - Colt Officers 45, Para P16-40, CZ SP-01, Walther P99. I've not clocked all of them, but here is the data for what i have.

45 ACP

Winchester Ranger T 230gr +P, 931 fps 5 inch gun, 863 fps 3.5 inch Officers Ed Brown barrel.

9MM Luger

Winchester Ranger T 127gr +P+, 1205 fps SP-01 4.5 inch barrel.

Federal HST 124gr +P, 1208 FPS Walther P99 4 inch barrel.

380 ACP

Winchester Ranger T 95gr, 856 fps Kel-Tec P3AT.

[shooting for M]

For Factory ammo, I like the Hydra-shok, 230 grain in .45. For .40, I carry what I get at work there's been some decent results with it over the years, it's 155 grain Win Ranger, It's some pretty hot stuff, about 195 PF out of an STI.

Jason

Edited August 17, 2008 by shooting for M

[Mark K]

I will just comment that on some of the Self-Defense and Concealed Carry sites, there is a thought that you could buy commercially available defense loads and not reload them yourself. The idea being that should you have to use the gun, and end up in court, you cannot be accused of reloading "Special Killer Loads". Commercial loads would certainly do just as well as self loaded rounds.

Just a thought.

Mark K

[markcic]

I will just comment that on some of the Self-Defense and Concealed Carry sites, there is a thought that you could buy commercially available defense loads and not reload them yourself. The idea being that should you have to use the gun, and end up in court, you cannot be accused of reloading "Special Killer Loads". Commercial loads would certainly do just as well as self loaded rounds.

Just a thought.

Mark K

In my carry class they recommended you find out what he local PD or State Police/highway Patrol used and carry that. It makes your lawyers job a little easier of you are ever involved in a shooting although this guy got railroaded.

[smokshwn]

One of the best resources for actual scientific testing of defensive loads. (no water jugs, plywood, wet socks, snot, etc)

http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tact...?ubb=forum;f=78

Here is just one bit of info..... the last four lines being the most important.

When comparing well designed duty handgun ammunition, there are minimal differences in penetration depths and temporary cavity effects, as noted below in the gel shots by Doug Carr:

As you increase bullet size and mass from 9 mm/357 Sig, to .40 S&W, to .45 ACP, more tissue is crushed, resulting in a larger permanent cavity. In addition, the larger bullets often offer better performance through intermediate barriers. For some, the incremental advantages of the larger calibers are offset by weapon platform characteristics. As is quite obvious from the photo above, NONE of the common service pistol calibers generate temporary cavities of sufficient magnitude to cause significant tissue damage. Anyone interested in this topic should read and periodically re-read, “Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness” by Urey Patrick of the FBI FTU, as this remains the single best discussion of the wound ballistic requirements of handguns used for self-defense -- it is available at: http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm .

Keeping in mind that handguns generally offer poor incapacitation potential, bullets with effective terminal performance are available in all of the most commonly used duty pistol calibers—pick the one that you shoot most accurately, that is most reliable in the type of pistol you choose, and best suits you likely engagement scenarios.

The following loads all demonstrate outstanding terminal performance and can be considered acceptable for duty/self-defense use:

9 mm:

Barnes XPB 105 & 115 gr JHP (copper bullet)

Federal Tactical 124 gr JHP (LE9T1)

Speer Gold Dot 124 gr +P JHP

Winchester Ranger-T 124 gr +P JHP (RA9124TP)

Winchester Partition Gold 124 gr JHP (RA91P)

Winchester Ranger-T 127 gr +P+ JHP (RA9TA)

Federal Tactical 135 gr +P JHP (LE9T5)

Federal HST 147 gr JHP (P9HST2)

Remington Golden Saber 147 gr JHP (GS9MMC)

Speer Gold Dot 147 gr JHP

Winchester Ranger-T 147 gr JHP (RA9T)

Winchester 147 gr bonded JHP (RA9B/Q4364)

.40 S&W:

Barnes XPB 140 & 155 gr JHP (copper bullet)

Speer Gold Dot 155 gr JHP

Federal Tactical 165 gr JHP (LE40T3)

Winchester Ranger-T 165 gr JHP (RA40TA)

Winchester Partition Gold 165 gr JHP (RA401P)

Federal HST 180 gr JHP (P40HST1)

Federal Tactical 180 gr JHP (LE40T1)

Remington Golden Saber 180 gr JHP (GS40SWB)

Speer Gold Dot 180 gr JHP

Winchester Ranger-T 180 gr JHP (RA40T)

Winchester 180 gr bonded JHP (Q4355)

.45 ACP:

Barnes XPB 185 gr JHP (copper bullet)

Federal HST 230 gr JHP (P45HST2)

Federal HST 230 gr +P JHP (P45HST1)

Federal Tactical 230 gr JHP (LE45T1)

Speer Gold Dot 230 gr JHP

Winchester Ranger-T 230 gr JHP (RA45T)

Winchester Ranger-T 230 gr +P JHP (RA45TP)

Notes:

-- Obviously, clone loads using the same bullet at the same velocity work equally well (ie. Black Hills ammo using Gold Dot bullets, Corbon loads using Barnes XPB bullets, etc…)

-- Bullet designs like the Silver Tip, Hydra-Shok, and Black Talon were state of the art 10 or 15 years ago. Modern ammunition which has been designed for robust expansion against clothing and intermediate barriers is significantly superior to the older designs. The bullets in the Federal Classic and Hydrashok line are outperformed by other ATK products such as the Federal Tactical and HST, as well as the Speer Gold Dot; likewise Winchester Ranger Talons are far superior to the old Black Talons or civilian SXT's.

----------------------------------------

Basically all the standard service calibers work when fed good quality ammunition. The platform picked tends to dictate the caliber. For example, Glocks and Sigs tend to run best in 9 mm; the S&W M&P is the first .40 S&W pistol that seems to offer an ideal ergonomic and shooter friendly package; while a properly customized 5" steel-frame single-stack 1911 in .45 ACP is a superb, unparalleled choice for the dedicated user willing to spend a significant amount of money to get it properly initially set-up and considerable time to maintain it. For folks who want a .45 ACP pistol, but don't want to invest the funds and effort into getting a good 1911, they would be better served with a S&W .45 ACP M&P, HK45, S&W 4566, or possibly the SA .45 ACP XD.

Whatever you choose, make sure you fire at least 500 and preferably 1000 failure free shots through your pistol prior to using it for duty. If your pistol cannot fire at least 1000 consecutive shots without a malfunction, something is wrong and it is not suitable for duty/self-defense use.

------------------------------------------

The keys are:

-- Cultivate a warrior mindset

-- Invest in competent, thorough initial training and then maintain skills with regular ongoing practice

-- Acquire a reliable and durable weapon system

-- Purchase a consistent, robust performing duty/self-defense load in sufficient quantities (at least 1000 rounds) then STOP worrying about the nuances of handgun ammunition terminal performance.

Edited August 17, 2008 by smokshwn

[Joe4d]

Best defensive ammo is shot placement, use whatever feeds and is accurate in your gun. Any name brand expanding round is gonna fail or work depending on many variables you have no control over. Shot placement you can control.

[David Sinko]

I am a huge fan of Speer Gold Dot but I feel the factory loads it way too soft. In my experience it does not give adequate penetration on people or pit bulls.

Another one with great potential is the Barnes XPB. The only problem with these is the bullets are long for weight/caliber and take up a lot of powder space so you need to choose your powder wisely.

If you are going to reload your own defensive ammo, use brass and primers to match the bullet that the factory loads and make sure you load to the same OAL of the factory loaded cartridge you are trying to imitate. New brass is also important. Nobody will ever know that you are using handloads UNLESS YOU SAY SO! This why you have the right to remain silent. Cartridges are not pulled apart during shooting investigations as any lawyer with any sense would rightly call that tampering with evidence. Just keep your mouth shut and you'll be fine.

Then again, if you choose to reload something really strange that nobody factory loads, you'll be out on your own.

Dave Sinko

[chirpy]

Cor-Bon DPX get a lot of attention as well as Cor-Bon Power Ball. Hope to try Federal Expanding FMJ. Right now I carry Federal Hydra-shock in .45 and Federal Nyclad (out of print) .38 Special non +P.

Richard

[Rolex]

Go with the RA40T Winchester 180GR SXT Ranger.

What you will have is the "OLD" RA40SXT minus the black

head and brass case! The old box's stated Ranger SXT

controlled expansion other wise known in Law Enforcement

as "BLACK TALLON" I do beleive that they were discontinued

from the market due to the severe body damage they did on

the human body. The results were recorded in a number

of medical cases involving police shootings, and what surgens

had to say about there use. My facts are from my memory-

in law enforcement shootings from over- approx. 25 years

ago, give or take. Maybe someone younger than I on the

forum can add in. But in MO for self protection RA40T will

do it for ya. The dept. I was with is still carrying these rounds!

[G+16]

+1 on hydra-shok 230 in 45acp, with good placement it should have good stopping power, I would never reload my carry ammo, if for nothing else to keep the lawyers happy.

[PINMAN44]

Just use a 500 magnum.

hehehe

[Al Capizzo]

Any suggestions for .38 Super? Its always the overlooked caliber.