USPSA

[Randy C]

I'm a new USPSA shooter. I've only shot in 5 local club matches, and a Steel Challange. I'm also a 30 year law enforcement veteran. I've read several thread postings on various forums and have spoke to a few fellow USPSA shooters who believe that USPSA, IDPA, Glock Sport Shooters ect. are "just games" and have no practical use as good tactical or defensive training.

My department holds weapon qualification once a year. We shoot 50 rounds starting out at the 7 yard line and moving out to 25 yards. We only do 2 slow and easy mandatory reloads and our target kill zone is 8.5"x14".

If you make most of your hits at the 7 and 14 yard lines, you can totally blow your shots at the 25 yard line and still qualify to carry your weapon. Most of the guys I work with only fire their duty and off duty weapons once a year. Before joining USPSA, I only shot a few times a year myself.

My first USPSA match as an onserver was a bit of an eye opener for me. I decided at my current skill level I would never want to engage even a Class C ranked shooter in a real life tactical situation.

Compared to my once a year department qualification, I believe USPSA shooting is providing me with some good practical defensive and offensive shooting skills. I'm engaging multiple targets while moving, speed reloading and having to plan which target to engage at which time. In my opinion, as an LEO, the "gun games" are providing me with the training I would probably never get any other way. As an added plus, the gun games are a real blast.

[Enthusiast]

As a LEO, you've certainly got a better perspective than I. However, I continually debate this same question with one of my buddies. At the core of it all, you're still working on key fundamentals that are directly applicable to a real life scenario. I personnally intend to stick with Production just because the equipment and routines that in-grain in my muscle memory won't need to adapt when/if the critical moment arises.

Welcome aboard.

[bierman]

The "gun games" are a great place to learn how to run a handgun (or rifle or shotgun) quickly, accurately and under a small degree of pressure. Maybe not such a great place for tactics (Sorry, but I am NOT going into a place where there are 10,12 or even 16 armed bad guys waiting to shoot me. Its fun when they are cardboard, not so much when they can shoot back), but tactics can and should be learned elsewhere.

I, too, remember my first match and thinking to myself "Man am I glad these folks are the good guys". The guys I worked with thought I was a good shooter. I kept telling them "No, I'm not that good. You want to see GOOD? Come to the match with me this weekend."

Keep doing what you're doing and don't listen to any naysayers.

[scirocco38s]

I always tell people who want to find something evil in this sport that it is a game, nothing more, nothing less. In reality it helps out most anyone who is competent with a firearm because it reinforces your skills and make you improve if you want to move up. For most of us who take the sport seriously we practice 1 or 2 times a week and also shoot local and major matches. I think it improves your abilities and therefore can be considered training of sorts. Law enforcement personell who participate definetly get more out of it because it makes them stay sharp with a weapon that they wouldnt ordinarily even use except to qualify. It is always interesting to watch a first time LE officer at a match especially if he comes up with a group and finds out his gun skills arent all he (or she) thought they where.

In real life I have no idea how I would react but I would hope it would be appropriate, as for you I would hope the training you have could be complimented with the extra practice you get by shooting the local matches. Remeber for use nobody shoots back at us ecept for the occasional popper fragment.

Regardless I am glad you are shooting with us and maybe you and others like you can dispell some of the myth that persist in the community about gun owners and recreational shooters in general.

[G-ManBart]

As a fellow LEO and firearms instructor I know exactly what you're talking about. When people ask me I usually tell them that USPSA shooting is possibly the best training there is for gun handling and fast accuracy skills you can find. Sure, in a swat situation you'll slice the pie around a corner etc, but training on that stuff ("tactics") doesn't teach you to put fast, accurate hits on target or to make really hard shots under pressure and/or while moving, leaning, off balance etc. Take the positives of gun handling skills, speed and accuracy under pressure and then combine those with the tactical stuff and you have the best of both worlds. The vast majority of LEO shootings are reactive in nature...guy jumps out of his car and points a gun at you, or you come around a corner and find a bad guy with a knife waiting for you....that's when being able to get your gun out quickly and put accurate rounds on target FAST means everything...and that's the core of what USPSA teaches you. It just happens to also be a lot of fun

[SA Friday]

USPSA is a game that just so happens to build necessary skills utilized in gun handling in tactical situations.

[Carlos]

I think this thread might be on thin-ice as far as forum rules. Nevertheless, please consider the following:

- around here (D.C. area) local USPSA shoots attract the creme-de-la-creme of shooters employed to, well, shoot. I am speaking of FBI HRT members, diplomatic security, US air martials, Marine HRP guys, SERT/SWAT guys, etc, etc. Those folks do not seem to believe that the local shoots are "simply games."

- even the NRA has jumped on the the bandwagon with their new LEO/.mil 3gun competition program.

USPDA and IDPA are excellent opportunities for training

[DonT]

I was always fairly accurate but never tried to go fast. The only time I would go to the range was to make sure my rifle was still sighted in before deer season and then I would take a pistol along just to put a few rounds through. It would be so long in between that I would have to go get the owners manual to remember how to field strip to clean.

The main thing that USPSA has done for me is to familiarize me with my firearm. To get comfortable with it, to drive it, to know it's capabilities and my limitations. To know where my sights are and how to put them on the target quickly. To be able to come out of the holster on a draw, switch safety to off, line up sights on a taget, and pull the trigger, all in less than a second. (Well, I still need to work on the lining up the sights part). But these are the things that I could not do before I started USPSA.

Does this make me a tactical warrior? No way. I have no tactical training whatsoever. I am familiar with my firearm and I can hit a target. I can see where this would be excellent training for LEO along with your other training. For me, this is pure fun and I get to compete with myself every week to improve.

[Mark Perez]

I guess I am the only one that disagrees.

The only thing USPSA/IDPA/etc prepare you for is ...... shooting USPSA & IDPA.

If you are using a match as a training substitute , you are waisting your time, ammunition and money.

Just where exactly is the benefit of shooting for a total of 2 minutes time, spread over 2-4 hours?

Seek training from someone who understands the dynamics of fighting in close proximity with others.

The 2 fields (sport & reality based training) are not mutually compatible.

my 2 cents

M

[Vulture]

We've all seen the videos where 10 cops surround a car and he tries to drive off so they all pull their weapon and blast away and hit the guy in the arm once and other cops even more. this helps you control that initial freak out moment just after you draw your weapon so you don't just blast away. USPSA has never claimed (i don't think anyway) to be a training tool for LE's or military, but it don't hurt. We regularly have swat guys show up at matches, they even have their own shirts made up.

[leam]

I look at both as ways to evaluate my skills. Neither make the grade as training, I train myself during the week and test myself at matches to see if I paid attention in class.

For a while I bought into the "A vs B" arguments. Then I woke up and realized what someone else wants or gets doesn't control me. I can get what I want from either and tend to shoot what's available; SASS, IDPA, USPSA, Monday Night League. Assuming I've practiced for it. If I've not put in dry-fire time then there's no reason to expect any good on the "test".

Leam

[boz1911]

The gunhandling skills demanded to be a good shooter in USPSA shooting are absolutely invaluable to a LEO. That being said I certainally do not think other skills are not also required for "bad guy situations".

Combine both sets of skills and the chances of surviving a "incident" have got to be good.

[mjbine]

Shooting USPSA trains you in your basic gun handling skills and trains your body and mind to react fast.

[notasccrmom]

If you are using a match as a training substitute , you are waisting your time, ammunition and money.

Just where exactly is the benefit of shooting for a total of 2 minutes time, spread over 2-4 hours?

The thing to keep in mind is that a lot of the good USPSA shooters don't just shoot at matches. They practice all week too. All the extra practice it takes to get to an A or B level makes you really proficient with a handgun.

[CDRODA396]

If you look at the customer base of TGO, Todd J, Manny B and just about every other GM who teaches the art of the handgun, you'll see some of the finest military and law enforcement units in the world near the top of the list.

Shooting USPSA matches alone would not necessarily be a training program in and of itself.....however, they can be a very valuable tool in your kit bag of tools....a supplement to flat range time, shoot house time, dry fire, force on force with simunitions, etc.

The "pressure" of time, being watched, desire to excel, etc. all make a match good training. When used in conjunction with other forms of training, USPSA/IDPA or any other form of "Game" is not a bad thing at all. IMO and YMMV!

[STInky]

I too am an LEO & I find a lot of resistance to the sport at my department. They all say that USPSA teaches bad habits and this and that....blah, blah, blah. You get from it what you want to get. My weapons handling skills are much higher after shooting USPSA for about 5 years than they would be with my 11 year LE career alone.

When guys start trying to give me $hit about the sport, I tell them that this is not training....but you can learn lots of valuable skills there.

I compare USPSA shooting to drag racing: it is a sport that utilizes highly-tuned machines to peform a specific task, while looking to save every fraction of a second here or there that is possible.

We are not out here to teach you to clear a building looking for a bad guy, but shooting under the stress of the timer is one of the greatest training aids I've come across yet.....

[ChrisStock]

The gunhandling skills demanded to be a good shooter in USPSA shooting are absolutely invaluable to a LEO. That being said I certainly do not think other skills are not also required for "bad guy situations".

Combine both sets of skills and the chances of surviving a "incident" have got to be good.

As a former LEO and former soldier that was deployed to places that were hot in multiple senses of the word, the safety and gun handling skills I have learned since I started shooting USPSA are fantastic. The OP made a very valid observation IMO, and is to be commended for being sharp enough to see it, and man enough to admit it.

[uscbigdawg]

Gotta disagree with you Mark and agree with the others and especially CDRODA396, given his experience. I can tell you while "tactics" is something that is a completely different skill set, my experience in USPSA/IPSC/3-Gun is directly responsible for keeping me alive on 2 overseas deployments.

Rich

[Jman]

USPSA, Just a game or practical real life training?

Both.

The game has improved, no question, the gun handling skills of thousands.

I thought that was "settled science".

Jim

[chirpy]

Try using USPSA and IDPA as tactics training. Don't just run blindly thru the COF...use good tactics, cover, conceilment and etc. and don't worry about winning! I have shot with several different LEO's who did this as training. I have also shot with several TO's who adopted many aspects of USPSA and IDPA into their programs which says something.

JMHO

Richard

PS: I have been around for 30 years so I have seen a lot.

[tpcdvc]

Well this is a very interesting subject and I would like to share a quick story.

I have a couple of high school buddies who are in law enforcement back home. They work for different departments in different states and the one is a firearms instructor and I guess helps train SWAT teams. Well, the last time we were all together they both were poking fun at me and saying the bad habit thing and how nothing what we do can translate into "real life". So I offered them a little challenge. I said OK, you guys go get your gear and you pick the drills that you teach and do regularly or whatever and I'll participate and we will see what happens. Well, there was not a single drill that I wasn't able to do in roughly half the time and more accurately. So, I asked them what part of what you just saw lends you to believe that having the skill set that shooting USPSA has given me would not help you? Where were all my bad habits? Are you telling me that because I can shoot way faster and more accurate than you it somehow means I can't follow protocol when doing a house entry? That's ridiculous. Plus, I have just proven to you that I was probably ten times more likely to survive these scenarios than they were. A fact that I'm sure your wife and kids would appreciate if making it home one morning is the difference of as little as one half second. Speed and accuracy is a huge "tactical" advantage!

My .02

[Mark Perez]

Uscbigdawg ,

post your pics of the deployment in the OIF/OEF thread in the gallery man!

All,

How does IPSC prepare you for something like these examples?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFEF0GSHLdU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iN7cbMxGMLs&NR=1, watch the ground work beginning at the ~1:00 mark.

(the trainining was being conducted by a fellow that goes by the handle "southnarc".)

When was the last time you had an IPSC/IDPA stage that resembled anything realistic like those scenarios?

until that day

mark

Edited August 13, 2008 by Mark Perez

[Flexmoney]

Mark,

I could shoot all those guys dancing around in the ring. Especially from the camera guy's position.

(just kidding).

Wrong topic for Brian's forum guys. Check the rules.

CLOSED.

By the way...for those that don't know, southnarc is the shit. PM me and I will put you onto his forum, if you promise to keep your ears open and your mouth shut over there (if signing in on my recommendation).