Why I Hate Classifiers

[Graham Smith]

This past weekend, I shot a USPSA match at a range I had not been to before with people I mostly had not met before. But they knew each other and were constantly bickering with each other about various shots - I couldn't tell who was serious and who was not. Anyway, the whole thing had me rather rattled. Plus, there were some questionable setups on two of the stages - one of which was arguably against the rules (a comstock with a limit of 3 mags).

Anyway, at this point, I didn't have enough scores to get a classification, but those I did have were in the 35% range - lower than what I had been shooting at other stages. I think that I am just overly conscious of "this is the one that counts". So when I saw this classifier, I thought it looked easy enough that I would do OK. No barricades, just three targets and some no-shoots - six shots two handed, reload, six shots strong hand; then repeat with the last six with the support hand.

Did I mention that classifiers just spook me. Well, two guys were arguing about something and I had to ask them to quiet down. And two of the no-shoots were not staked down well and they were just sort of slowly flapping back and forth. I was doing fine until the last transition and I failed to swap mags on the final six support hand. Got five shots out and slide lock - crap - reload and shoot the last round. Well, I knew that I had a procedural coming, but they hit me with 5 - one for each shot before the mag change.

Now, I don't want to say that was not right, but there had been a few questionable calls on other stages, all in favor of the regulars. One of the regulars even told me that I had been hosed. Now I know that I got the score I shot, but that's not going to keep me from bitch'n about it.

Edited August 6, 2008 by Graham Smith

[Limitless13]

Graham,

I don't know if I posted about this before or not, but I feel your pain. About two months ago I shot up north out of my regular area. Thought it would be fun to go meet some people and shoot a match that I hadn't before. All in all, I was very disappointed. The first stage was identical to the one you posted above and so we all take our turns shooting then the RO is up. The RO just stacks all his rounds freestyle and says I'm done. He says that's legal. Well, after being a little ticked off. I take a look at the stage description. He calls the CRO over. Finally we find no stacking on the stage, he takes his zero. Reluctantly.

So we move through some of the other stages and get to one where some of the shooters are having trouble dropping the steel. I'm not thinking much of it because they're shooting minor loads in 9. Finally, it's my run up. Bang bang, cling, steel doesn't drop. I shoot the other three and they do drop. Now, I'm a bit ticked because .45 factory ammo won't push the steel down. I challenge for a calibration and the RO says no, you're just going to have to suck it up. Said he won't penalize me, but just not give me the hit. On the edge of exploding, I just swallow my frustration. Ro shoots next, steel doesn't fall, pisses and moans and ends up getting to reshoot the stage. After more obvious frustration, the CRO comes over and tells me and the rest of the squad that we can reshoot the stage for free. Well, we finish up the rest of the match. And we're all headed back to the stage to find the CRO among others tearing down all the stages..... He forgot.

A very frustrating day of shooting. There were so many doubles I thought I was only one who hadn't perfected them. No one liked it when I asked the shooter to shoot another double after he had had 3 on the first 5 stages. Oh well, we live, we learn.

[little_kahuna]

There were so many doubles I thought I was only one who hadn't perfected them. No one liked it when I asked the shooter to shoot another double after he had had 3 on the first 5 stages. Oh well, we live, we learn.

You know how we score doubles at our locals... Alpha, Mike!

Like Rob L. said in an article I read, doubles are so uncommon that it should just be scored a mike.

-LK

[JThompson]

There were so many doubles I thought I was only one who hadn't perfected them. No one liked it when I asked the shooter to shoot another double after he had had 3 on the first 5 stages. Oh well, we live, we learn.

You know how we score doubles at our locals... Alpha, Mike!

Like Rob L. said in an article I read, doubles are so uncommon that it should just be scored a mike.

-LK

My fav is if you're good enough to put them through the same hole you ought to be good enough to put a little space between them.

[Genghis]

I think the locals were showing you some hospitality - assuming you would want to sandbag and doing their best to help you.

[LChico]

Anyway, at this point, I didn't have enough scores to get a classification, but those I did have were in the 35% range - lower than what I had been shooting at other stages. I think that I am just overly conscious of "this is the one that counts". So when I saw this classifier, I thought it looked easy enough that I would do OK. No barricades, just three targets and some no-shoots - six shots two handed, reload, six shots strong hand; then repeat with the last six with the support hand (weak hand).

Did I mention that classifiers just spook me. Well, two guys were arguing about something and I had to ask them to quiet down. And two of the no-shoots were not staked down well and they were just sort of slowly flapping back and forth. I was doing fine until the last transition and I failed to swap mags on the final six support hand. Got five shots out and slide lock - crap - reload and shoot the last round. Well, I knew that I had a procedural coming, but they hit me with 5 - one for each shot before the mag change.

Now, I don't want to say that was not right, but there had been a few questionable calls on other stages, all in favor of the regulars. One of the regulars even told me that I had been hosed. Now I know that I got the score I shot, but that's not going to keep me from bitch'n about it.

To go back to your original question, 5 procedurals WAS the correct call:

10.2.4

A competitor who fails to comply with a mandatory reload will incur

one procedural penalty

for each shot fired

after the point where the

reload was required until a reload is performed.

Linda Chico (L-2035)

Columbia SC

Edited August 7, 2008 by LChico

[AikiDale]

Did I mention that classifiers just spook me.

Without me even noticing I seem to be able to do worse on the classifier than the more fun courses of fire. I have accepted this reality and moved on. My plan is to allow the USPSA to promote me to GM based on major match wins. Classifiers? We don't need no stinkin' classifiers!

[SDM]

Graham,

I don't know if I posted about this before or not, but I feel your pain. About two months ago I shot up north out of my regular area. Thought it would be fun to go meet some people and shoot a match that I hadn't before. All in all, I was very disappointed. The first stage was identical to the one you posted above and so we all take our turns shooting then the RO is up. The RO just stacks all his rounds freestyle and says I'm done. He says that's legal. Well, after being a little ticked off. I take a look at the stage description. He calls the CRO over. Finally we find no stacking on the stage, he takes his zero. Reluctantly.

I'm sure I should know this but what do you mean by stacking? Just shooting it all freestyle?

[driver8M3]

9.4.5.3 Stacked shots (i.e. obviously shooting more than the required

rounds on a target(s) while shooting other target(s) with fewer

shots than specified in any string), will incur one procedural

penalty per target insufficiently engaged in any string. This

penalty will not be applied if the written stage briefing specifically

authorizes stacked shots.

[enoon]

Stage description says three targets: 2x each two-hands, reload, 2x each strong hand, reload, 2x each weak hand -- for example.

Stacking would be 6x on target one two-hands, reload, 6x on target two strong hand, reload, 6x on target three weak hand. Thus avoiding transitions on the target array but still six holes in each target. Gets a little harder to call if the three targets are at fifty yards...

Edited to note that the rule cited refers to strings and my comment was all in one string. That post is better info.

Edited August 7, 2008 by enoon

[SDM]

I knew it was something I should have known. Now I do, thank you.

[el pres]

I hate classifiers more then you !!

I like to come in 2nd place in the match in Limited while "zeroing" the classifier stage !!

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...st&p=801709

[Graham Smith]

5 procedurals WAS the correct call

I know. Like I said, I got the score I deserved. I'd just have been happier if everybody else had gotten the scores they deserved on all the other stages.

Did I mention that on the previous stage, I was shooting great and there was a popper at the end the fell over just as I was about to shoot it (it had been falling over in the breeze periodically while we were there). Had to do the stage over and was in such a rush to get to that popper before it fell over again, I muffed two easy targets at the start.

All in all, this day pointed out the need to remain calm and collected throughout a match. To focus on the moment and not on what has gone or has yet to come. Time to go back over some of the zen parts of Brian's (excelent) book. I also need to find a way to introduce some stress into my training. Perhaps I'll get a timer and run wires to some electrodes on my {blank} that will fire off at random intervals - that should up the stress level.

[Jay6]

Huh, that sounds like a tough situation. Being from Maine I do a decent amount of traveling out of the area to make matches and thank god I have not had a situation like this. Whenever I am at a club that I am not too familiar with the guys are great and I have never seen any "home cooking" from the RO. My only suggestion would be to just shoot your game, have fun and let all the "other stuff" not bother you as much. The only thing you can control is your shooting so just concentrate on that and who cares what others are doing or having done to them. I would say try not to make excuses for any misses or procedurals you had though. THAT you have 100% control over. If you put a hole in a target, there is nothing the peanut gallery or RO can do to take it away.

As far as the classifiers go I sometimes tank out on those as well which I know is 100% mental. I am in the process of working through this issue right now.

[bbbean]

There were so many doubles I thought I was only one who hadn't perfected them. No one liked it when I asked the shooter to shoot another double after he had had 3 on the first 5 stages. Oh well, we live, we learn.

You know how we score doubles at our locals... Alpha, Mike!

Like Rob L. said in an article I read, doubles are so uncommon that it should just be scored a mike.

-LK

I've never shot a double in a match, and have been annoyed when some other shooters pestered ROs over what seemed to me to be obvious mikes. But just this afternoon, I was working on fundamentals and doing slow shots at 15 yrds, and damn if I didn't shoot at least three pair of bona fide doubles within 4 mags.

I'm still not going to hassle ROs, though, unless its a pretty obvious double.

[Don Gwinn]

I've never shot a double in a match (nothing that would fool anybody, anyway) but I did shoot one that was near-perfect in the shoothouse at Blackwater when Todd Jarrett was running the internet geeks through a surprise course. I was sure it was a mike (I didn't remember a miss there, but I don't trust myself to call shots) but before I had a chance to say anything on the walk-through, Jarrett said "That's a double, it's almost a perfect double, but I stood right here and watched both rounds go through the same hole!" That ended all doubt for me.

The more I read about people gaming mikes by calling them doubles, the more I wonder if he was putting me on. But I swear I could see just a tiny bit of oblong shape to it, and I'm sticking to my story!

[VegasOPM]

I'm not a fan of classifiers either- I tend to get either low 40's or high 70's- nothing in between (I'm B Limited, C Production). As for the cheating (let's call it what it is), the only saving grace is that these guys will get there butts handed to them at an Area or National match in their class. Most of the guys that I shoot with are underclassed, since we rarely shoot classifiers (once every two months or so) and most of our matches have primarily long, high-point stages (so that is what we practice for). A "D" or mike on a 48 round stage is much less damaging than a mike on a classifier. Several of them get called for sandbagging, but I think that the truth is that a lot of shooters and clubs focus too much on the classifiers.

[Hi-Power Jack]

The main reason I hate classifiers is that

so many of the better shooters seem to do

very poorly, only in that one COF.

I'm usually amazed to see that I came in

15th - 19th pretty consistently in the other

five stages, and came in 5th in the classifier.

And, I beat out so many A & B shoooters (I'm

a C shooter) - who beat the pants off me in the

other five stages.

[VegasOPM]

The main reason I hate classifiers is that

so many of the better shooters seem to do

very poorly, only in that one COF.

Yeah- that happens too.

[EricBudd]

The main reason I hate classifiers is that

so many of the better shooters seem to do

very poorly, only in that one COF.

Yeah- that happens too.

The other possibility is that the better shooters are shooting withing their skill envelope for long/medium stages and have adopted a "hero-or-zero" mentality toward classifiers. To get a M or GM class score on a classifier you have to let it really all hang out. If you happen to be an 'A' shooter going for an 'M' score the crash-and-burn factor is high.

I know some guy do throw classifier stages here and there, but i prefer to believe in peoples better angels.

Eric

[GENE S]

I beleave thet is called SANDBAGING..........

[WDB]

The main reason I hate classifiers is that

so many of the better shooters seem to do

very poorly, only in that one COF.

Yeah- that happens too.

The other possibility is that the better shooters are shooting withing their skill envelope for long/medium stages and have adopted a "hero-or-zero" mentality toward classifiers. To get a M or GM class score on a classifier you have to let it really all hang out. If you happen to be an 'A' shooter going for an 'M' score the crash-and-burn factor is high.

I know some guy do throw classifier stages here and there, but i prefer to believe in peoples better angels.

Eric

And yet another possibility is that the classifiers don't really measure what you need to do in a match to compete at the top. Movement, breaking a stage down for the most efficient way to shoot it, etc,. My last 3 range from 80-87% but at Area 6 I finished at 67% and I had a match I was happy with. I don't like the system at all but I don't have an answer for it either. Maybe someday someone with more experience than me will think of something. Hopefully.

[shred]

Pretty much every classifier has tiny points on it. Shooters that are fast but shoot bad points do poorly on classifiers yet may be able to crank on wide-open-target hoser field courses all day long. Likewise, more-accurate-but-slower shooters tend to do better on low-points and low-hit-factor stages like classifiers.

Nearly everybody scores a lower percentage at major matches versus the very top shooters for a couple reasons:

1--The classifier HHFs are artificially somewhat low. If they really set them all to what Max and Todd and Chris and Dave and TGO can do at 100%, everybody's on-classifiers percentage would drop even more. Notice how few GM & M shooters actually score GM & M %'s at a major match.

2-- Classification percentage is your best six of your most recent 8 good stages. I bet most of us would have a much better big match percentage if we could dump our crash-n-burn stages as well as only pick the best 6 of the good ones... see above, re: GM & M %'s.

Flip through the classifier book sometime and check out the target placements, distances, hard-cover and no-shoot situations. If the rest of the targets in your local matches aren't that hard, then maybe the problem isn't with the classifiers...

[lugnut]

And yet another possibility is that the classifiers don't really measure what you need to do in a match to compete at the top. Movement, breaking a stage down for the most efficient way to shoot it, etc,.

Yep, I've recently started shooting USPSA and think the same thing. I've done well shooting classifiers and am currently Production B. I still haven't figured out stage break down and it shows in the matches I've competed in.

I don't get too wrapped up in it though... I figure I compete in the division and that's it. I don't really need a classification system for me to know how I compare with peers. That being said I do set goals and they include climbing the classes... It's "one" measure of my skills.

[MemphisMechanic]

In probably the last 2 months of shooting our local matches, I've had to speak up *FOR* awarding the perfect double at least 3 times.

Each time, I saw the second round run through the same hole, altering the shape of the hole slightly. The target quivered... No doubt it was a double, or I wouldn't have said anything when the RO started to rule it a Mike. In exactly zero of those cases did the shooter themselves argue the point.

Lets just say, I like my local group.

Edited October 7, 2008 by MemphisMechanic