Had an A.D. today!

[PistolPete]

Here is the deal. First off I'm extremely careful whenever handling firearms and take safety as the MOST important thing in shooting. Well a buddy of mine gave me a couple boxes of primers that he had no use for. I always use Winchester small rifle primers in my .38 super open gun but since they are had to get nowadays I figured I might as well take the CCI primers and use them for practice ammo. So I'm at the range today and these bullets were really inconsistent. When they were firing many of them were really quiet almost sounding like a squid. I'm not sure if it is because they are old or what but they didn't have much energy and it was evident when the gun was fired. The gun would still cycle and rack the next round but it was def. not 100%. I also loaded other ammo in the same batch with the usual Winchester primers and they were fine. There is no doubt there is either something with these primers or they just don't have enough energy to ignite the powder?

So, I'm practicing a drill today and go for the reload and as I'm inserting the mag into the gun the gun fires. I freeze where I'm at and my finger is NOT on the trigger, the mag is still in my hand half way inserted into the magwell. I focused on all the minor details of everything and will say 150% that my finger was NOT on the trigger. So, I put the mag in my mag holster, check to insure the gun is empty and reholster, then check the brass that was ejected from the gun. It was a round with the CCI primer (I know this because WSR primers are gold and the CCI are silver) so I picked it up. Nothing looked out of the ordinary. First I thought it might have been a hammer follow but the time it took to drop the mag in the gun, grab the mag, and halfway insert it wouldn't have made sense. I have quick reloads but I'm not that quick. LOL So the only thing I can think of is that some how the CCI primer ignited whether it was from the shock of the mag being inserted which doesn't make sense or that the heat from the gun set it off? Either that or maybe something else is going on with my gun?

I'm an experienced shooter and am able to see a lot of things going on while I'm shooting. Esp. with my practice today as I was slowing down just focusing on seeing everything happen. It wasn't a balls to the wall type of practice session.

I'm looking for any ideas as to what might have caused this so I can make sure it never happens again. Luckily the round went into the berm so there were no issues there and obviously noone was hurt so that's another plus.

Thanks for any advice,

Pete

[larry cazes]

Here is the deal. First off I'm extremely careful whenever handling firearms and take safety as the MOST important thing in shooting. Well a buddy of mine gave me a couple boxes of primers that he had no use for. I always use Winchester small rifle primers in my .38 super open gun but since they are had to get nowadays I figured I might as well take the CCI primers and use them for practice ammo. So I'm at the range today and these bullets were really inconsistent. When they were firing many of them were really quiet almost sounding like a squid. I'm not sure if it is because they are old or what but they didn't have much energy and it was evident when the gun was fired. The gun would still cycle and rack the next round but it was def. not 100%. I also loaded other ammo in the same batch with the usual Winchester primers and they were fine. There is no doubt there is either something with these primers or they just don't have enough energy to ignite the powder?

So, I'm practicing a drill today and go for the reload and as I'm inserting the mag into the gun the gun fires. I freeze where I'm at and my finger is NOT on the trigger, the mag is still in my hand half way inserted into the magwell. I focused on all the minor details of everything and will say 150% that my finger was NOT on the trigger. So, I put the mag in my mag holster, check to insure the gun is empty and reholster, then check the brass that was ejected from the gun. It was a round with the CCI primer (I know this because WSR primers are gold and the CCI are silver) so I picked it up. Nothing looked out of the ordinary. First I thought it might have been a hammer follow but the time it took to drop the mag in the gun, grab the mag, and halfway insert it wouldn't have made sense. I have quick reloads but I'm not that quick. LOL So the only thing I can think of is that some how the CCI primer ignited whether it was from the shock of the mag being inserted which doesn't make sense or that the heat from the gun set it off? Either that or maybe something else is going on with my gun?

I'm an experienced shooter and am able to see a lot of things going on while I'm shooting. Esp. with my practice today as I was slowing down just focusing on seeing everything happen. It wasn't a balls to the wall type of practice session.

I'm looking for any ideas as to what might have caused this so I can make sure it never happens again. Luckily the round went into the berm so there were no issues there and obviously noone was hurt so that's another plus.

Thanks for any advice,

Pete

Yup. Sounds like an AD. I would look for the cause somewhere other than the primers.

[Miranda]

PistolPete,

I want to be sure I read it right.

Did the primer on the AD round have the usual firing pin dent in it ?

miranda

[PistolPete]

PistolPete,

I want to be sure I read it right.

Did the primer on the AD round have the usual firing pin dent in it ?

miranda

You know what I'm not sure. I just noticed it was silver. I'll go thru my brass from today to see if I can find it to verify.

[HighVelocity]

Is it possible that a barrel can get hot enough to "cook off" a round that's in the chamber? How hot would that be, exactly?

[bkeeler]

Could it be hammer follow?

BK

Edited July 21, 2008 by bkeeler

[PistolPete]

Could it be hammer follow?

BK

I don't think it was hammer follow because the round went off about 1 second after the last shot was fired. It is possible but I don't think highly likely. I just looked at all my brass from today and noticed one of them had a large dent on the primer which might have caused the round to go off. Only problem with this theory is that it had a primer strike on it as well. Who knows what happened but I know 150% that my finger was NOT on the trigger. If I had even a 1% doubt that it might have been I would state that. Anyways, I'm going to completely detail strip and clean my gun and inspect all the components to make sure nothing strange is going on.

Pete

[HighVelocity]

How about a Hang Fire? Could the hammer have fallen on that round and not fired immediately and you didn't catch it because you were going into the reload?

[waxman]

My guess, and only a guess, Is the same thing that happend to me during my RO class. When I made the mag change, the force of mag seating cause the trigger to push against the side of my straight trigger finger. With a 1 lb trigger like my limited gun, and probably like your open gun. That is all it took. The meat on my finger offered just enough resistance to pull the trigger. Just a guess, but it happened to me

[Flexmoney]

Your likely bumped your "trigger parts" with the mag coming into the gun.

Call your gunsmith.

[yoshidaex]

I'm assuming it happened with an S_I?

Is it possible the grip/frame screws are slightly loose?

I've seen that a few times where a gun would go off when the shooter's finger was no where near the trigger. Checked the screws and they were loose.

[Paul Burtchell]

Had the same thing happen to my son-in law in a match with a customized XD9. He swore his finger was off of the trigger. Took his DQ graciously and went on. One week later at the range during practice the trigger bar broke and locked his XD up tighter than Dick's hat band. Coincidence????

[GentlemanJim]

Your likely bumped your "trigger parts" with the mag coming into the gun.

Call your gunsmith.

If you are sure you were off the trigger....

Flex has the answer here....its not that hard to drop the hammer by mag and sear contact.

Jim

[PistolPete]

This is definately a possibility as the gun did fire when the mag was being inserted. It scared the crap out of me to say the least. I would be willing to bet this was the issue. So what exactly happens with this? Does it happen if the mag being inserted contacts the trigger bar moving it back to fire the gun? The trigger is set at 2lbs. and the gun is a Brazos shorty. The gun has been awesome and I haven't had any issues with it at all since I've owned it but I do have about 35K rounds thru the gun. I have a backup on order that should be here hopefully in a few weeks. I'll shoot him an email and see if I should send it back to him. Is there a way I can test this out to see if I can make it happen again? Obviously I wouldn't do it in live fire but possibly in dryfire or would it be just way too random?

Thanks,

Pete

[PistolPete]

I'm assuming it happened with an S_I?

Is it possible the grip/frame screws are slightly loose?

I've seen that a few times where a gun would go off when the shooter's finger was no where near the trigger. Checked the screws and they were loose.

BINGO!!!!

The grip screws were loose and I couild turn them by hand. Tomorrow I'm going to complete disassemble the gun and do a thorough cleaning and inspection. I haven't done this in a while so it's time esp. after what happened today. I'm glad there is an answer to this as I'm always trying to be as safe as possible.

Pete

[yoshidaex]

Loose grip screws will allow just enough slop in the sear/disconnect/trigger bar area where it will cause the gun to go off it you rough handle it.

glad it was something simple.

let us kow how things go with the screws back on tight.

Edited July 22, 2008 by yoshidaex

[G-ManBart]

I'm assuming it happened with an S_I?

Is it possible the grip/frame screws are slightly loose?

I've seen that a few times where a gun would go off when the shooter's finger was no where near the trigger. Checked the screws and they were loose.

BINGO!!!!

The grip screws were loose and I couild turn them by hand. Tomorrow I'm going to complete disassemble the gun and do a thorough cleaning and inspection. I haven't done this in a while so it's time esp. after what happened today. I'm glad there is an answer to this as I'm always trying to be as safe as possible.

Pete

After you put it back together, make sure that you can't press on the sear spring from the inside (where the magazine can make contact with it) and cause the hammer to drop.

[UW Mitch]

This thread is great info - I'm new to the S_I thing, and I had no idea something like that could happen. I'll be sure to check my grip screws periodically.

~Mitch

[BSeevers]

Loose grip screws can result in a cracked frame which will duplicate the following/doubling issues. Look very carefully around right side near mag catch and grip panel. Sometimes you can look " downthrew" the grip at a light while applying light pressure to see a hairline crack. Any crack will cause issues.

[Chris Keen]

I'm pretty sure he meant a cracked "grip". It's very common in Open guns but can also occur in Limited guns as well.

[Dan Sierpina]

Pete,

Put some Loctite 242 on the screws when you reassemble it. One of the guys from Ct. had hammer follow on his gun, screws were loose on that gun too.

However, Flex and Jim are correct also, if there is little to no takeup on the trigger parts.

[vernbo]

Loose grip screws will allow just enough slop in the sear/disconnect/trigger bar area where it will cause the gun to go off it you rough handle it.

glad it was something simple.

let us kow how things go with the screws back on tight.

I have seen shooters not understand why R. O.'s would ask shooters not to remove a mag from a loaded and holstered gun -to top off there mag- and then reinsert the mag into a holstered gun during make ready. this is why.

[lugnut]

Loose grip screws will allow just enough slop in the sear/disconnect/trigger bar area where it will cause the gun to go off it you rough handle it.

glad it was something simple.

let us kow how things go with the screws back on tight.

I have seen shooters not understand why R. O.'s would ask shooters not to remove a mag from a loaded and holstered gun -to top off there mag- and then reinsert the mag into a holstered gun during make ready. this is why.

I've heard this called an administrative reload. Since this happened to Pete on a reload drill- I'm sure the grip and thumb safeties were disengaged. Wouldn't the safeties prevent this from happening on an administrative reload?

[gm iprod]

I've heard this called an administrative reload. Since this happened to Pete on a reload drill- I'm sure the grip and thumb safeties were disengaged. Wouldn't the safeties prevent this from happening on an administrative reload?

You would think this was the case BUT, as the grip screws were loose and the internals were in the incorrect position/s at the time in relation to the externals and frame, it is unlikely that the grip safety was in the correct position to prevent the trigger bar from moving back. If the grip safety was not engaged or more likely in an Open gun, disconnected, the sear most probably moved independantly of the trigger. The thumb safety was most likely not engaged, but again if it was then the loose crews MAY have allowed enough wiggle for the hammer to move independantly of the sear.

What exactly happened may never be really known. The important thing was that the bullet only contact berm. Therefore through out this misadventure the man with his hand nearest the problem clearly was following THE most important rule. Point it somewhere safe at all times.

Glad there was only embarrassment, not injury.

[XRe]

When they were firing many of them were really quiet almost sounding like a squid.

Having never heard one, I am a little curious... What does a squid sound like???

I routinely check grip screws and scope mount screws to insure they're staying tight - no need to put force on them unless they're loose. Make this a part of your normal maintenance routine. I do this on regular 1911s, too - grip screws and bushings. Loose scope mount screws can result in your zero changing on a shot to shot basis, and eventually possibly broken screws.

When things get hinky/stupid on an S_I platform (ie, gun that is otherwise fine starts doubling or going off under rough handling like this, etc), its never a bad idea to check the grip and grip screws out. Especially if you're in the habit of smacking a full mag into the grip in such a way that you have to slam it in to get it to seat - that can stretch and crack the grip...