ExtremeShot Posted April 15, 2008 Share Posted April 15, 2008 I'm getting ready make some aluminum test comps. A while back I read an article in Front Sight about testing AR compensators. They built a couple rigs to measure recoil, etc. I'm wondering if a guy could just use a pistol rest and videotape the shots from the side (with a ruler in the background), and then use a video editing program to see the frames so that you could measure the muzzle lift? Beyond noting how it "feels" to me, I'm wanting an easy, quantifiable test. Got any ideas? Darren Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caspian guy Posted April 15, 2008 Share Posted April 15, 2008 I'm getting ready make some aluminum test comps. A while back I read an article in Front Sight about testing AR compensators. They built a couple rigs to measure recoil, etc. I'm wondering if a guy could just use a pistol rest and videotape the shots from the side (with a ruler in the background), and then use a video editing program to see the frames so that you could measure the muzzle lift?Beyond noting how it "feels" to me, I'm wanting an easy, quantifiable test. Got any ideas? Darren Not sure about a test rig but you might want to look at borrowing a Casio EX-F1 camera. It has a claimed 1200 fps video mode that along with some test scale cards might be useful. The link is to a product demo video. Looks interesting. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L9X25 Posted April 15, 2008 Share Posted April 15, 2008 (edited) Darren, We did the same thing by taking high speed video of the comps being shot with a neutral grip that allowed the gun to recoil as it pleased. We placed a grid in the background to give a reference as to vertical and horizontal movement. You will need a decent frame rate to insure that you are capturing the full cycle of the gun. With a standard video camera, my open EAA Gold Team (9x21) was able to cycle between frames and appear almost motionless. The giveaway was that the slide did not appear to cycle. In reality, the feel and stability are still more important than the actual movement. Edited April 15, 2008 by L9X25 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFlowers Posted April 15, 2008 Share Posted April 15, 2008 I have am image of the "Myth Busters" test rig in my head now!!! Basically a Ransom rest with board beside, the board marked with a grid. Affix a marker to the rest and you now have a graph of the recoil curve of each comp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingman Posted April 15, 2008 Share Posted April 15, 2008 yep, board behind gun. Attach marker to scope mount. Ransom rest, measure upward movement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSMITH Posted April 15, 2008 Share Posted April 15, 2008 Personally I don't care if the gun does backflips and cartwheels. If the dot lifts and comes right back down to plant where it lifted from all is well with the world. It is my opinion that there isn't a shooter in the world that can outrun a reasonably efficient Open gun that has a dot that lifts and plants back down where it lifted from. The solution isn't in the compensator, the compensator is just a part of the system. The solution lies in setting the gun up so that the dot track is high quality. It can be done many different ways, short guns, long guns, heavy guns, light guns, and everything in between. Quality of the dot track is everything, how you get there can be very a personal solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingman Posted April 15, 2008 Share Posted April 15, 2008 as usual, Howard has a good way of dealing with it. Some people like flat violent to some guns.... Others will deal with a bit more lift for softness... Others try to reach a happy medium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExtremeShot Posted April 15, 2008 Author Share Posted April 15, 2008 Personally I don't care if the gun does backflips and cartwheels. If the dot lifts and comes right back down to plant where it lifted from all is well with the world. It is my opinion that there isn't a shooter in the world that can outrun a reasonably efficient Open gun that has a dot that lifts and plants back down where it lifted from. The solution isn't in the compensator, the compensator is just a part of the system. The solution lies in setting the gun up so that the dot track is high quality. It can be done many different ways, short guns, long guns, heavy guns, light guns, and everything in between. Quality of the dot track is everything, how you get there can be very a personal solution. I agree but dang it I'm stumped by all the choices.....3 ports, 4 ports, 5 ports, oh my! Horizontal ports or not? Titanium, Steel, Aluminum? I can't stand all the choices. It's like when I go to a restaurant and they ask: What kind of sandwich? 6" or 12"? Cheese? Toasted? What toppings? Sandwich by itself or do you want the combo? Cookies? Dang it...just give me something! Surprise me. I don't care! I'm interested in comparing number of ports. What I planned to do was make a 3 port, 4 port, and 5 port comp out of aluminum. I thought I might leave enough meat on the end of the comps so I can come back and add one horizontal side port, then test, then come back and add a second side port and test, and be able to compare the difference between having horizontal ports and not. I figured I make them out of aluminum because it's cheap and easy to machine. I can use a set screw to temporarily hold the comps on the barrel. I'll use the same gun and the same 170 PF load for all the tests. I wish I had a ransom rest but I blew every dime I had putting this open gun together. Hmm....there's got to be a jerry-rigged way for me to quantify the difference. ...How about I hold a magic marker between my fingers out to the side and mark the rise on the wall? Darren Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSeevers Posted April 15, 2008 Share Posted April 15, 2008 To win, pick one and practice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrianH Posted April 16, 2008 Share Posted April 16, 2008 The best answer I always give is go to a match and just yell out "anybody want to let me shoot their open gun?" I'm thinking practically everyone would be happy to let you shoot their gun. That's really the best way to figure out what works for you. Shoot as many different guns as you can. Eventually one will sing to you, and that's the gun you should build. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingman Posted April 16, 2008 Share Posted April 16, 2008 more than quantify you should qualify. sometimes the numbers are nice, but the feeling can be better at times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lcs Posted April 16, 2008 Share Posted April 16, 2008 Darren, Save some time and effort, unless you just want to experiment. I too went down the same path. I am by no means an expert. Four open guns and as many comps and gun weights and lots of $$$. I agree with HSMITH. My current open has the weight I like and the dot tracks straight up and down and stays within the C-more. I worked with different loads until I got the gun dialed in. The first couple of load combinations had the dot jumping up, to the right, and off the glass. Now, just up and back to the same spot. I just need ten more years of practice! Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted April 16, 2008 Share Posted April 16, 2008 A ransom rest will tell you how it works in a ransom rest. I liked the AR comp testing that PK did. It seemed like he worked it pretty good. But, I don't think that kind of test wold tell me much as a pistol shooter. For me, it would be Burkett Timing Drills and lots of ammo. The clock tells the tale. Then again, pick one and practice sounds good too. I do recall that George at EGW posted that he would send long comps to Doug K. to test. Doug would shoot them, then hack off a port, and shoot them some more... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShooterSteve Posted April 16, 2008 Share Posted April 16, 2008 Flex is right on when he says the clock tells the tale. I was taking a lesson from a GM and we started talking about what feels better. I insisted I was right (of course, because I always am) and I was sure that the way that felt best was fastest. Boy was I wrong. The clock does not lie, does not cheat, and is not prejudice in any way. You can shoot for feel, but listen to the clock, even if it hurts your feelings (and pride). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted April 16, 2008 Share Posted April 16, 2008 The answer to the question is: - stop worrying about the exact configuration - pick something and shoot it - realize that you are building an internal timing to the gun, and everything else will seem strange until you spend some time with it - if you're new to Open, nothing now will seem like it does after a couple thousand rounds (see the second bullet above) finally - once you have some stick time with an Open gun, and you start to get a feel for what you like in terms of dot movement, and recoil profile, find the smith you want to build your gun, and tell the smith what features you want (not what parts you want) and let the smith make the design decisions about how to get you there. Each smith has their own set of parts of tuning that arrive at soft/snappy/flat/consistent/heavy/light/short/long/whatever. If you're a smith, build a few and compare Once you have some stick time with an Open gun, shooting different configurations may allow you to find something better - you'll know it when you shoot it. If you have no real stick time with one, shooting different guns will give you some idea of what's out there, but you may likely pay so much more attention to how quick the gun moves, and how much concussion it generates, that you really can't fully evaluate what the gun is doing in your hands, and how the dot is really moving.... Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExtremeShot Posted April 16, 2008 Author Share Posted April 16, 2008 (edited) Thanks guys for info. My gun is already built. This was my first 100% build. See the picture below. So far it runs real good (I had a couple double feeds the other day...I think it's a mag problem). It currently has a titanium Bedell comp on it, however, I made a couple goofs on it so I've decided I want to make my own. Instead of simply copying the Bedell comp, I thought I would play around with different designs. So now you know what an engineer who owns a mill and lathe does in his spare time (at least when I'm not shooting). Darren PS: I plan to blue the slide and frame. Edited April 16, 2008 by ExtremeShot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted April 16, 2008 Share Posted April 16, 2008 Shoot that tool ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Keen Posted April 16, 2008 Share Posted April 16, 2008 When I had my open gun built I had no idea what was good or bad .... basically just copied a friends open gun, which was recently built by the same smith. We chose the Brazos 1 piece barrel & comp. 3 ports - no choices to make up front OR down the road because it's machined out of 1 piece of steel. I just got what I got. I also didnt play around with dif. bullets or loads. Just pick one .......... and practice (ALOT). Your body will adjust & adapt to the gun. Believe me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted April 17, 2008 Share Posted April 17, 2008 When all else fails, pick what the winners use. If they all use something different, that might be a sign too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExtremeShot Posted April 17, 2008 Author Share Posted April 17, 2008 Ah you guys are boring. ............I got my first aluminum blank cut to length, and drill and tapped tonight. See attached picture. Darren Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingman Posted April 17, 2008 Share Posted April 17, 2008 btw for your information. I am going to be using an aluminum comp on my new gun. Yes, not for just testing but for real. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExtremeShot Posted April 17, 2008 Author Share Posted April 17, 2008 btw for your information. I am going to be using an aluminum comp on my new gun. Yes, not for just testing but for real. You better use 7075 and anodize it so it will last. Let me know how it works out. Darren Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted April 17, 2008 Share Posted April 17, 2008 btw for your information. I am going to be using an aluminum comp on my new gun. Yes, not for just testing but for real. Good luck w/ that It'll be interesting to see how quickly baffle erosion sets in... Maybe we need a wager... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Cheely Posted April 17, 2008 Share Posted April 17, 2008 btw for your information. I am going to be using an aluminum comp on my new gun. Yes, not for just testing but for real. Good luck w/ that It'll be interesting to see how quickly baffle erosion sets in... Maybe we need a wager... I have a feeling it will be like the batteries in my surefire. It will be great for a while, then all of a sudden it'll start to disappear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExtremeShot Posted April 17, 2008 Author Share Posted April 17, 2008 btw for your information. I am going to be using an aluminum comp on my new gun. Yes, not for just testing but for real. Good luck w/ that It'll be interesting to see how quickly baffle erosion sets in... Maybe we need a wager... I have a feeling it will be like the batteries in my surefire. It will be great for a while, then all of a sudden it'll start to disappear. Kidding aside, I wonder if you could coat an aluminum comp in something (besides anodizing it) that would be heat resistant? Duracoat? That Ionbond stuff? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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