Does IDPA Need A Grand Master Classification ?

[vincent]

I used to think IDPA needed a class higher than Master because of Sevigny and Leatham. Now I think the IDPA organization's time would be better spent on a well executed SO training program. Improving the quality and consistency of SO training would better the overall experience of shooters at all major matches. This would help every shooter not just the handful of shooters who are disappointed because Sevigny beat them again at Nationals.

[Mick]

I don't believe that's true. Shooting well, even at the blazingly fast level, is simply not that physically demanding an activity. I mean, one of - arguably the - best USPSA shooter period is a 46-year-old fat man with one good knee who shoots most matches wearing a knee brace.

BTW, I profoundly disagree - politely, I hope - with the comment about having sponsors being one of the keys to making it to the top. You need to have a top skill level before you can get sponsors. Which means you sacrifice. You work your butt off. You give up, at least for awhile, the idea of having the wife or girlfriend, the house, the nice car, the kids - basically all the things that most people would agree make life worth living. And if, on match day, the people who have made those sacrifices, either now or in the past, beat the hell out of the guys who didn't....well, what did you expect?

I don't mind a debate or even to disagree....This is why we have a forum!

I was ROing the DTR Championship in March and you can see the young kids with their youth have a distinct advantage and several are getting free ammo which helps their cause ie...... sponsored...

We were debating anyone's ability to become a GM on another thread and I find that not to be true due to physical aspects of shooting ie motor skills, eyesight etc....You can't train in motor skills and my example there was Adam Popplewell. He has the quickness of cat, the eyes of superman and the determination of an elephant...AND SPONSORS!

I was doing a trigger for a fellow today who has shot USPSA since the 70s and he will always be a B LTD shooters as is my best buddy. The motor skills just aren't there and we are going down the far side of the hill now in our 50s. We have several kids who are barely old enough to own a gun but have sponsors to get them good guns and ammo and then their parents haul them around to matches so that is the ultimate sponsorship!

Now to disagree..these kids are getting their sponsors long before they make it to M class. When a well known gunsmith sees your ability to grow at age 19 and gives you a $4000 OPEN gun and ammo with which they start burning down classifiers and raise the percentage/scores for those classifiers you can see why it is harder for others to reach that level.

I made GM at age 45 with 2 kids, a wife, a full time job (and part time), and mortgage but I was determined and knew the physical aspects were slipping away!!! Now you will see this fat 52 year old puffing hard to run with the 20 year olds!!!

Shooting fast isn't that physically demanding but then TGO was doing is 20 years ago and even at age 52 my splits and hits are as good as the younger guys BUT its the movement that gets me. I don't draw under one second much anymore. I definitely don't get to the next array of targets as fast and getting off props like beds etc is getting tough!!!

To get away from hijacking this thread any further....

I like IDPA's classifier. Just because some kid can do it faster than anyone else doesn't raise the standard.

Is it true that the classifier stays the same no matter how many people shoot it and no matter how fast they shoot it?

We used to think a 6 second El Presidente was fast but LTD guys are now doing it in the low 5s and OPEN guys are getting into the low 4s. That means the bar (percentage of the top score) is raised every time someone burns off a fast one. Not so with IDPA..?????

So, if you want a GM class in IDPA then, you can raise the standard a bit above the current M class and have that class but don't base it on the percentages of the fastest scores. Just have a level/standard set higher than M class without anyone's ability to raise it....

[Flexmoney]

I used to think IDPA needed a class higher than Master because of Sevigny and Leatham.

Yeah...as one of those GM's in the other sport...another class doesn't matter. Those two guys (and a few others in the mix) beat the crap out of most of the GM's too.

But.... I just looked at the poll results here. FWIW, I've never seen such a high level of voting with the results so one-sided.

There is certainly another level to be seen. I feel that I could go out and shoot a Master level IDPA classifier just about every time.

There is something to be said for having a higher standard as well. People raise their level of performance to meet the objective.

[Bones]

There is something to be said for having a higher standard as well. People raise their level of performance to meet the objective.

True.

The issue boils down to what each of us set as standards and define as objectives - and then whether those have anything to do with Classification systems.

Craig

Edited April 24, 2008 by Bones

[kmitchl]

I'm with Vincent on IDPA making a focused effort to improve the quality of the SO's. I continue to go to regional level matches and hear SO's cite some locally adopted rule that is not in the current rule book but enforced by the local club. I should be able to go to any IDPA match and have a full understanding of the rules and how they are applied.

Having a contact at HQ to provide rule intrepretations in heading the right direction.

[Mick]

I'm with Vincent on IDPA making a focused effort to improve the quality of the SO's. I continue to go to regional level matches and hear SO's cite some locally adopted rule that is not in the current rule book but enforced by the local club. I should be able to go to any IDPA match and have a full understanding of the rules and how they are applied.

Having a contact at HQ to provide rule intrepretations in heading the right direction.

You definitely need rules that are universally the same anywhere.

I don't know why you couldn't have all of the above!

Can members petition for changes???

[MichiganShootist]

I believe it would be fair to say I opened up a can of worms. Hey that's a good thing ! !

In my experience..

1. regional and national IDPA matches are "ducked or avoided" by some damn good shooters because they know they will be facing sponsored shooters who are are either full time shooters (or nearly so). That is not good for the sport IMO because it motivates shooters to sandbag.. or for many of the really good shooters to stay home.

2. The thread drift on SO training has no place in this discussion. It's not really related

3. The vote is pretty damn clear ( considering a lot of USPSA shooters who have never attended a IDPA match voted)

4. IDPA needs a new level of rankings.

[Duane Thomas]

In my experience..

1. regional and national IDPA matches are "ducked or avoided" by some damn good shooters because they know they will be facing sponsored shooters who are are either full time shooters (or nearly so).

What is your experience level in this regard, just out of curiosity? How many people have you actually seen ducking facing the top shooters? I've never seen it - not that that means it doesn't happen. But it's always been my experience that "damn good shooters" seek out the chance to pit themselves against the best, just to know where they really stack up.

[Mike P]

I believe it would be fair to say I opened up a can of worms. Hey that's a good thing ! !

In my experience..

1. regional and national IDPA matches are "ducked or avoided" by some damn good shooters because they know they will be facing sponsored shooters who are are either full time shooters (or nearly so). That is not good for the sport IMO because it motivates shooters to sandbag.. or for many of the really good shooters to stay home.

2. The thread drift on SO training has no place in this discussion. It's not really related

3. The vote is pretty damn clear ( considering a lot of USPSA shooters who have never attended a IDPA match voted)

4. IDPA needs a new level of rankings.

The results of this poll seem to be clear and thats a fact. It is also a fact that these results, while interesting, mean squat.

Even if there were some membership voting mechanism in place, (there's not) it'd still take a damn sight more than a few hundred votes (even votes of card carrying members ) to implement, or even begin to implement rules changes.

As far as "good" shooters ducking matches, I've not really seen it either.

[Mick]

I believe it would be fair to say I opened up a can of worms. Hey that's a good thing ! !

In my experience..

1. regional and national IDPA matches are "ducked or avoided" by some damn good shooters because they know they will be facing sponsored shooters who are are either full time shooters (or nearly so). That is not good for the sport IMO because it motivates shooters to sandbag.. or for many of the really good shooters to stay home.

2. The thread drift on SO training has no place in this discussion. It's not really related

3. The vote is pretty damn clear ( considering a lot of USPSA shooters who have never attended a IDPA match voted)

4. IDPA needs a new level of rankings.

I voted even though I've only attended a couple IDPA matches but shoot an IDSA match every month.

I just figured you wanted good discussion about a possible GM class. I don't know who actually gets to make that call but it's great that we got to discuss it.

As for ducking matches, I wouldn't call it the same but I've seen folks decide to go to different matches because of the attendance of upper shooters and less of a chance at the begining of the prize table. I wouldn't miss a good match for that reason.

I just go take the beating I deserve!!!

[Loves2Shoot]

In my experience..

1. regional and national IDPA matches are "ducked or avoided" by some damn good shooters because they know they will be facing sponsored shooters who are are either full time shooters (or nearly so).

What is your experience level in this regard, just out of curiosity? How many people have you actually seen ducking facing the top shooters? I've never seen it - not that that means it doesn't happen. But it's always been my experience that "damn good shooters" seek out the chance to pit themselves against the best, just to know where they really stack up.

I think Duane is quite correct, any shooter who "ducks a match" because there are better shooters there isn't much of a shooter. I would much rather shoot with better shooters than win a piece of paper or wood, the experience is much more valuable than a prize.

[MichiganShootist]

Well we clearly differ on that point. It cost me nearly a thousand dollars to shoot a short match with only about 150 rounds fired in the Indoor Nationals in February.

To be 100% honest... if I had no possible chance of winning my division or at least a high finish.. I would have stayed home. Do I like to see where I "rank" against the best shooters???? You bet.... but that's because I can also still hold out hope for some individual recognition.

I am just concerned that what I view as an incompete set of classifications is putting a artificial ceiling in place... and that when you look at lots of the major matches... there are generally FAR fewer Master level shooters than there are at many of the other levels. Are there less Masters??? Sure... but not by that order of magnitude.

Take the ESR situation. Jerry M. will win every match he shoots in unless he breaks a leg.... and IMO that is one reason lots of matches in which he is entered (Like the Winter Nationals) draw virtyually no competition for him. At that match (including Jerry) there were only 3 master level shooters there even there are hundreds of Master level ERS shooters out there.

[Gregg K]

Take the ESR situation. Jerry M. will win every match he shoots in unless he breaks a leg.... and IMO that is one reason lots of matches in which he is entered (Like the Winter Nationals) draw virtyually no competition for him. At that match (including Jerry) there were only 3 master level shooters there even there are hundreds of Master level ERS shooters out there.

Well if you think about it, if you are a master ESR shooter, the first place Master trophy is up for grabs at a match where JM is shooting. Jerry will get the Division Champ award and the second place guy will get moved to first place Master ESR. I don't think JM being there is going to make any Masters not show up. If I was Master ESR I would love to have JM to compare to and still have a shot at the first place Master award. In my mind, it would still be second place but that isn't bad if you are close to keeping up with JM.

When I make master in ESR I hope that JM is still at the top of his game. I look forward to competing against him.

Edited April 28, 2008 by Gregg K

[gb32]

Are there "hundreds of master level ESR shooters out there?"

As far as competing with Jerry M goes, the handful of revo shooters that I know well concede him nothing and have every expectation of beating him. Has it happened yet? No, maybe it never will. The point is, they never talk about how he's a professional shooter and how he has an advantage. All I hear about is their plans for sucess.

This is the end of my contribution to this topic. I got my ass kicked last weekend and am going to do something about it instead of getting involved in these crazy debates. Later, Gary B.

[Bill Nesbitt]

I was just wondering. Why would anyone other than an IDPA Master care whether or not there is a Grand Master class?

I think we should start a new poll and only allow IDPA Masters to vote.

If you can't beat the top dogs then you need to work harder.

:popcorn1:

[Duane Thomas]

While it's true that this poll really solves nothing - including whether there's a preponderance of opinion in favor of a Grand Master class - I have wondered a few things:

(1) How many of the people voting in this poll actually shoot IDPA on a regular basis?

(2) How many of the people voting in this poll are actually IDPA Masters?

Answer: we don't know.

BTW, I never really bought the idea that 8.whatever percent of shooters in IDPA are Masters. Think about it for a pico-second: that would mean that one out of every 12 members in IDPA is a Master class shooter. That's ridiculous on the face of it.

[freeidaho]

While it's true that this poll really solves nothing - including whether there's a preponderance of opinion in favor of a Grand Master class - I have wondered a few things:

(1) How many of the people voting in this poll actually shoot IDPA on a regular basis?

(2) How many of the people voting in this poll are actually IDPA Masters?

Answer: we don't know.

BTW, I never really bought the idea that 8.whatever percent of shooters in IDPA are Masters. Think about it for a pico-second: that would mean that one out of every 12 members in IDPA is a Master class shooter. That's ridiculous on the face of it.

Duane,

I concur. One could go to http://www.idpa.com and look at major match results, to see the breakdown of shooters in those matches, including the Nationals. It seems like that is the correct sample to use for this discussion.

kr

[Bones]

Are there "hundreds of master level ESR shooters out there?"

As far as competing with Jerry M goes, the handful of revo shooters that I know well concede him nothing and have every expectation of beating him. Has it happened yet? No, maybe it never will. The point is, they never talk about how he's a professional shooter and how he has an advantage. All I hear about is their plans for sucess.

This is the end of my contribution to this topic. I got my ass kicked last weekend and am going to do something about it instead of getting involved in these crazy debates. Later, Gary B.

Amen Brother, to everything you said.

Craig

[Bill Nesbitt]

I'm also wondering about the percentages. For instance, I have 3 Master classifications on file in the IDPA website. (the 4th one got lost somehow) Was I counted 3 times or only once? There are a lot of members who don't have classifications on file yet. This is a new process and will take a little while.

[MichiganShootist]

The fact that Master Class shooters are not required to classify every year also makes the water muddy. It's one of the reasons that I believe many people are underestimating the number of IDPA Masters "out there".

We have quite a few shooters in my state that are a Master in SSP (arguably the easiest division to make Master) and are now shooting as an ESP EXP (some with the same gun and load-- which is legal but it just doesn't sound right)...and one shooter that is a SSP & ESP Master who this year started shooting CDP... as an EXP.

As long as many shooters change diviisions quite often and the clubs don't populate the centralized data base it will always be difficult if not impossible to sort out the distribution of the shooters.

I would also submit that there is probably a higher drop out rate percentage for the lower level classifications which also slants the data.

[Duane Thomas]

We have quite a few shooters in my state that are a Master in SSP (arguably the easiest division to make Master) and are now shooting as an ESP EXP (some with the same gun and load-- which is legal but it just doesn't sound right)...

If you're taking the same gun and load that you used to shoot in SSP and pitting yourself against the folks armed with custom 9mm/.38 Super 1911s in ESP, that seems pretty studly to me.

[Mick]

The fact that Master Class shooters are not required to classify every year also makes the water muddy. It's one of the reasons that I believe many people are underestimating the number of IDPA Masters "out there".

Are there any shooting sports that require a shooter to maintain a classification every year by qualifying in that ranking again? I was thinking no but I'm not sure. Usually if you reach it once it's yours until you leave the organization. That should stop some of the sandbagging.

[Jane]

The fact that Master Class shooters are not required to classify every year also makes the water muddy. It's one of the reasons that I believe many people are underestimating the number of IDPA Masters "out there".

Are there any shooting sports that require a shooter to maintain a classification every year by qualifying in that ranking again? I was thinking no but I'm not sure. Usually if you reach it once it's yours until you leave the organization. That should stop some of the sandbagging.

I don't know for sure what Michigan meant by muddying the waters. Perhaps the fact that the online classification system has existed for less than 2 years, so people who made Master prior to that may not have had their info updated in the database.

IDPA doesn't require Master class shooters to shoot the classifiers because you can't normally go DOWN in classification in IDPA

Shooters may not go down in

classification except for permanent physical disability or for other

irrevocable reasons. IDPA HQ will determine this.

[boo radley]

We have quite a few shooters in my state that are a Master in SSP (arguably the easiest division to make Master) and are now shooting as an ESP EXP (some with the same gun and load-- which is legal but it just doesn't sound right)...

If you're taking the same gun and load that you used to shoot in SSP and pitting yourself against the folks armed with custom 9mm/.38 Super 1911s in ESP, that seems pretty studly to me.

Then you must find it studly to shoot a Glock.

G34/35 with a slicked up trigger, sights and springs and 9mm 147gr's, or .40 equivalent: SSP

" " (with maybe a magwell) : ESP

They're not giving up anything to any other platform, IMO.

Edited April 30, 2008 by boo radley

[Mick]

"Shooters may not go down in

classification except for permanent physical disability or for other

irrevocable reasons. IDPA HQ will determine this....."

In USPSA you can petition to go down if by age or injury or whatever...

I say stay with what you earned but it's nice to know you can go to where you actually can compete again.