Flexmoney Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 Ok, I'll bite. I don't care about any designation; but how is it exactly that I'm going to make all this money? Ok, by Ben's calculations, there would be 30 - 40 shooters, let's say 35. At $500 per shooter, that is $17,000 Where is that $500 coming from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted March 17, 2008 Author Share Posted March 17, 2008 2007 USPSA_Limited_Production_Revolver_Nationals - Final results for Limited Place Name No. USPSA Class Division PF Lady For Age Match Pts Match % Sponsered 1 Robert Leatham 241 L684 GM Limited Major No No 1728.1370 100.00% Sponsered 2 Travis Tomasie 12 L1973 GM Limited Major No No 1717.1018 99.36% Sponsered 3 Chris Tilley 37 TY38861 GM Limited Major No No 1681.4843 97.30% Sponsered 4 Phil Strader Jr. 25 FY31992 GM Limited Major No No 1674.4455 96.89% Unsure 5 Ted Puente 108 TY42094 GM Limited Major No No 1658.3954 95.96% Unsure 6 Blake Miguez 196 FY29399 GM Limited Major No No 1638.8501 94.83% Unsure 7 Emanuel Bragg 75 L2476 GM Limited Major No No 1637.6789 94.77% Unsure 8 Michael Seeklander 29 A30288 GM Limited Major No No 1634.4055 94.58% Sponsered 9 Michael Voigt 21 RD4 GM Limited Major No No 1633.1739 94.50% Sponsered 10 Todd Jarrett 221 L2458 GM Limited Major No No 1614.3153 93.41% Sponsered 11 Henning Wallgren 111 TY25335 GM Limited Major No No 1604.7615 92.86% Sponsered 12 Taran Butler 9 L2354 GM Limited Major No No 1602.5874 92.73% Sponsered 13 Ron Avery 326 l2747 GM Limited Major No No Senior 1596.2036 92.37% Sponsered 14 Shannon Smith 212 TY38969 GM Limited Major No No 1586.5232 91.81% Unsure 15 Paul Clark Jr. 280 A28779 GM Limited Major No No 1582.9247 91.60% Semi-Sponsered (barely) 16 Matt Trout 205 TY40855 GM Limited Major No No 1564.2490 90.52% Unsure 17 Lee Dimaculangan 284 A45511 M Limited Major No No 1554.3124 89.94% Sponsered Several of the people listed above would be Pros based on my suggestions of professionalism in post #1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted March 17, 2008 Author Share Posted March 17, 2008 Ok, I'll bite. I don't care about any designation; but how is it exactly that I'm going to make all this money? Ok, by Ben's calculations, there would be 30 - 40 shooters, let's say 35. At $500 per shooter, that is $17,000 Where is that $500 coming from? Entry fee!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted March 17, 2008 Author Share Posted March 17, 2008 Are there really only 30-40? Probably half that many. Depending on how you look at it. The more that choose to play, the more money available. If the money is right, you can bet that the pros from overseas would start showing up too, and that 30-40 would double quickly. I also think it would spawn more single division matches, like the Single Stack only matches, this would concentrate all the money shooters in the same division together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 OK...where is the money coming from to pay the entry fee? You are talking about an extra $5,000 per year per shooter. The guys on your list cannot sustain that, I don't believe. Not in todays world. Even the AMU guys are on a budget. I would suspect that they'd have to drop shooters from the team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L9X25 Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 All you're doing by adding a 'designation' is watering down the competition more that the 5 divisions already do. I just don't like anything that (in my opinion) dilutes the competition. +100 I get a few things that I'm grateful for but sometimes still have to choose between paying the electirc bill on time or buying bullets to practice. Since I know the decision you likely made ... what is it like living without electricity? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Stoeger Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 2007 USPSA_Limited_Production_Revolver_Nationals - Final results for Limited Place Name No. USPSA Class Division PF Lady For Age Match Pts Match % Sponsered 1 Robert Leatham 241 L684 GM Limited Major No No 1728.1370 100.00% Sponsered 2 Travis Tomasie 12 L1973 GM Limited Major No No 1717.1018 99.36% Sponsered 3 Chris Tilley 37 TY38861 GM Limited Major No No 1681.4843 97.30% Sponsered 4 Phil Strader Jr. 25 FY31992 GM Limited Major No No 1674.4455 96.89% Unsure 5 Ted Puente 108 TY42094 GM Limited Major No No 1658.3954 95.96% Unsure 6 Blake Miguez 196 FY29399 GM Limited Major No No 1638.8501 94.83% Unsure 7 Emanuel Bragg 75 L2476 GM Limited Major No No 1637.6789 94.77% Unsure 8 Michael Seeklander 29 A30288 GM Limited Major No No 1634.4055 94.58% Sponsered 9 Michael Voigt 21 RD4 GM Limited Major No No 1633.1739 94.50% Sponsered 10 Todd Jarrett 221 L2458 GM Limited Major No No 1614.3153 93.41% Sponsered 11 Henning Wallgren 111 TY25335 GM Limited Major No No 1604.7615 92.86% Sponsered 12 Taran Butler 9 L2354 GM Limited Major No No 1602.5874 92.73% Sponsered 13 Ron Avery 326 l2747 GM Limited Major No No Senior 1596.2036 92.37% Sponsered 14 Shannon Smith 212 TY38969 GM Limited Major No No 1586.5232 91.81% Unsure 15 Paul Clark Jr. 280 A28779 GM Limited Major No No 1582.9247 91.60% Semi-Sponsered (barely) 16 Matt Trout 205 TY40855 GM Limited Major No No 1564.2490 90.52% Unsure 17 Lee Dimaculangan 284 A45511 M Limited Major No No 1554.3124 89.94% Sponsered Several of the people listed above would be Pros based on my suggestions of professionalism in post #1 I think it is important to draw a distinction between having a sponsor, and being a Pro. Lots of Joe's can get a break cut to them on ammo and such. Very few guys make their living at shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted March 17, 2008 Author Share Posted March 17, 2008 OK...where is the money coming from to pay the entry fee?You are talking about an extra $5,000 per year per shooter. The guys on your list cannot sustain that, I don't believe. Not in todays world. Even the AMU guys are on a budget. I would suspect that they'd have to drop shooters from the team. $500, not $5000 It is YOUR entry fee, you pay it. It is an investment in your business. Just as rent would be in a brick and mortar business. When I was playing golf, it cost me an average of $4000 per week in expenses, and that was 10 years ago. ( Caddy, hotel, entry fees, food, travel, etc...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlamoShooter Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 Z,i just want to make sure i understand the issue... i am assuming the professional shooter does not apply to D,C,B,A and M class shooters b/c there are few to none in these classes. Correct so is your proposal to distinguish the amateur (non sponsored) GM from the professional (sponsored) GM? Yes My replies are in red Dang now I have worms crawling out of my computer all over the floor to slip on. How and what would be the description of "Sponsored"? Be I hope this does not get into a .....Symatics thing I don't like fixing anything that is not broken being "Fixed" . I can tell who the players are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L9X25 Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 By the strict definition of Professional, did the Florida Open just push 100+ people (some of them being B, C & D class shooters) into the Pro class? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted March 17, 2008 Author Share Posted March 17, 2008 Sponsored equals getting product. Product equals anything from ammunition components to guns and equipment. Pretty simple. Agreed, the list of players would only have a few surprises, but it would allow them to start making some money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted March 17, 2008 Author Share Posted March 17, 2008 By the strict definition of Professional, did the Florida Open just push 100+ people (some of them being B, C & D class shooters) into the Pro class? YEP, and those prizes/money SHOULD have gone to the pro's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmittyFL Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 Since I know the decision you likely made ... what is it like living without electricity? It sucks, you have to feed the cases into the 650 by hand. Luckily though I had a luke warm beer near by in case the candle ingited any powder. What is the main goal Z? To help me make a bunch of money or to allow someone who finishes 10th or 20th or 40th to say they won? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blanks Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 OK...where is the money coming from to pay the entry fee?You are talking about an extra $5,000 per year per shooter. The guys on your list cannot sustain that, I don't believe. Not in todays world. Even the AMU guys are on a budget. I would suspect that they'd have to drop shooters from the team. $500, not $5000 It is YOUR entry fee, you pay it. It is an investment in your business. Just as rent would be in a brick and mortar business. When I was playing golf, it cost me an average of $4000 per week in expenses, and that was 10 years ago. ( Caddy, hotel, entry fees, food, travel, etc...) Why would a one of these top shooters risk his own $500.00 to win heads up against others of his own skill level when he can be virtually assured of a valuable item off the prize table paid for out of the average shooter's pockets? Naw... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SA Friday Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 2007 USPSA_Limited_Production_Revolver_Nationals - Final results for Limited Place Name No. USPSA Class Division PF Lady For Age Match Pts Match % Sponsered 1 Robert Leatham 241 L684 GM Limited Major No No 1728.1370 100.00% Sponsered 2 Travis Tomasie 12 L1973 GM Limited Major No No 1717.1018 99.36% Sponsered 3 Chris Tilley 37 TY38861 GM Limited Major No No 1681.4843 97.30% Sponsered 4 Phil Strader Jr. 25 FY31992 GM Limited Major No No 1674.4455 96.89% Unsure 5 Ted Puente 108 TY42094 GM Limited Major No No 1658.3954 95.96% Unsure 6 Blake Miguez 196 FY29399 GM Limited Major No No 1638.8501 94.83% Unsure 7 Emanuel Bragg 75 L2476 GM Limited Major No No 1637.6789 94.77% Unsure 8 Michael Seeklander 29 A30288 GM Limited Major No No 1634.4055 94.58% Sponsered 9 Michael Voigt 21 RD4 GM Limited Major No No 1633.1739 94.50% Sponsered 10 Todd Jarrett 221 L2458 GM Limited Major No No 1614.3153 93.41% Sponsered 11 Henning Wallgren 111 TY25335 GM Limited Major No No 1604.7615 92.86% Sponsered 12 Taran Butler 9 L2354 GM Limited Major No No 1602.5874 92.73% Sponsered 13 Ron Avery 326 l2747 GM Limited Major No No Senior 1596.2036 92.37% Sponsered 14 Shannon Smith 212 TY38969 GM Limited Major No No 1586.5232 91.81% Unsure 15 Paul Clark Jr. 280 A28779 GM Limited Major No No 1582.9247 91.60% Semi-Sponsered (barely) 16 Matt Trout 205 TY40855 GM Limited Major No No 1564.2490 90.52% Unsure 17 Lee Dimaculangan 284 A45511 M Limited Major No No 1554.3124 89.94% Sponsered Several of the people listed above would be Pros based on my suggestions of professionalism in post #1 I think it is important to draw a distinction between having a sponsor, and being a Pro. Lots of Joe's can get a break cut to them on ammo and such. Very few guys make their living at shooting. TY Ben, that was the point I was trying to show with the second half of my input. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted March 17, 2008 Author Share Posted March 17, 2008 Since I know the decision you likely made ... what is it like living without electricity? It sucks, you have to feed the cases into the 650 by hand. Luckily though I had a luke warm beer near by in case the candle ingited any powder. That is FUNNY What is the main goal Z? To help me make a bunch of money or to allow someone who finishes 10th or 20th or 40th to say they won? Smitty Let's face it, I see things from the viewpoint of the professional. I think you guys should be making money. the guy that finishes 40th, and is low amateur gets his due as well. I think the change would create more interest in the sport by way of greater exposure. News organizations are much more likely to cover a professional event as to a bunch of guys/gals participating in a hobby. Look at Leo's post, I was not there, but how much was the prize table at the FL Open worth? Now think what your take would have been. Why shouldn't the best shooters in the world not be compensated accordingly. I am not saying I have it all figured out, but the premise has merit and it can work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 Hmm.. There are maybe half a dozen people in the world that actually shoot IPSC for a living--Everybody else has a day job. Some of those day jobs are in the shooting industry, some not. Most people with day jobs of any sort object to being called 'Pros', even if they get a few hundred $ worth of stuff a year. I fit in the "pro" category, but there's no way any 'sponsorships' I have come anything close to paying my way. There's no way I'm throwing down $500 on a match entry. I know, we'll tax the rich.. Then all us poor people can have a free ride! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlamoShooter Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 (edited) OK ...Put me in the PRO class Benny Hill fixed my mags and so that my gun would run perfect and he would not take my $$$ And thin he fixed my comp that had a metal flaw and cracked = he put a new comp on my gun and would not take my $$$ So that makes me Professional Triangle shooter. I hope that does not make Benny mad. Oh ..and I should have paid several M and GM shooters for advice too. I got that free so ... Yep that makes me a PRO. Wait till my wife finds out . we cab build that summer home, or at least patch the Tent with duct tap again. I think Mr. Zee is sounding like a ...... .... ....Golfer Edited March 17, 2008 by AlamoShooter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted March 17, 2008 Author Share Posted March 17, 2008 And, WHEN the exposure goes up, so does the interest in the gun companies/suppliers to align themselves with the pros. More exposure equals more money in sponsorships for more people. High exposure, do you think as President of the USPSA, MV does not get more than a shooter of similar caliber? Of course he does, that is the nature of the business. Shooting related companies certainly understand exposure and how to get it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moverfive Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 Out side of M and GM, specifically GM obviously - assuming we had a well defined and functional "professional" class......what would change? What I am missing here is - what exactly is trying to be fixed by creating a professional class? Since the primary target of this idea going to be current GM's and maybe a M here or there, we are only talking about affecting a very small number of folks. And when this issue first arose in the 90's, USPSA created the GM class......the thought process was that this would isolate that "top 5%" of the shooters allow the other 95% to compete amongst themselves as amateurs and if you were one of the "unlucky" ones to make GM AND not be able to practice compete as much as the professional GM's......sorry, you are in the very small minority. I understand that and is just the nature of the beast being a GM in this current system. Maybe what would make for a little more realistic angle to this topic is making GM a temporary class. Meaning - you have to do something to not only earn that class but also must do something to maintain it. So this way only the top shooters of a specific time period are having to compete against each other leaving the rest to compete as amateurs. .....but again, we are only talking about a very small group of folks and I just don't see where the results of the match for the other 95+% of the crowd would change with or without another special group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 And, WHEN the exposure goes up, so does the interest in the gun companies/suppliers to align themselves with the pros. More exposure equals more money in sponsorships for more people. Exposure where? Talk to McBane-- Gun companies could care less about a bunch of guys shooting STI 2011's. "Back in the Day", Colt had a big team. S&W had a big team... Springfield had a big team.. back then IPSC was the cutting edge... not anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 I just got finished writing a PM to Z...explained that the vast unwashed masses of this sport DO NOT want anything changed....the fact is that the top half of A shooters and most M shooters and all GM shooters are trying to win the event, the rest are just there to hear the gun go bang and take up oxygen...they might not like hearing that, but that is the way it is..sure they can win their class but that is not what this thread is about... Being a Pro shooter started about '80 or so when Kelsey gave Fowler a gun to shoot and then built another for McCormick...then Tommy Campbell got his stuff from S&W and then there were a few more... The top of this sport supports the Pro vs Amateur stance...won;'t call names, cause it will get the thread closed, but everyone knows who it is...they like it just like it is...the thought is Don't Rock the Boat....everyone is in their comfort zone...doing what they like...the underlings know they can't win, the big dogs like it just like that without having to accept the label of Pro....It ain't going to change till that mindset changes. I agree with Z that the Pro shooters who want to do this for a living should pony up 500 or so bucks to shoot...make for a better prize table by far....fact is that most of them wouldn't think of throwing down a chunk of money and 15 or 20 of the top guys get together, winner take all...cause they do not have the gambling mindset like golfers do, for instance...They like it just like it is...so the top guys are going to be the fully sponsored guys or the guys with independent $$ and time to allow them the choice of shooting or working. Fowler was more than well off, Seyfried had $$, some like Robbie and Brian were just good enough to get noticed and the sponsorships followed... I think Z is spinning his wheels pushing this, cause the membership of USPSA isn't ready for it...the keep it like it is, was dramatically shown in the apathy of the voter turnout earlier...so there you have it... Z, buddy, you have some great ideas, and I absolutely LOVE your enthusiasm...but you are trying to push a chain uphill with this...grab a glass of OJ and ponder the lint in your naval instead. You are going to have to face it Z, there are no Titanic Thompson's in the shooting game, unless you go to Clays or hand thrown Pigeons...there is where the $$ and gamblers are. Tightloop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Nesbitt Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 Or should it be Amateurs and Professionals?First let’s define the two: Professional: 1) of, relating to, or connected with a profession 2) (of a person) engaged in a specified activity as one's main paid occupation rather than as a pastime How many shooters have a main paid occupation of shooting USPSA? They make their money by consulting, teaching etc. not just shooting matches. I remember a little about when USPSA did this back in the 1990's. A lady shooter I knew was "sponsered" by Springfield. I think they gave her a gun and a uniform. She had to pay other expenses. When the Pro thing came about she gave the gun and uniform back. She couldn't afford to be a pro. This will hurt more people than it will help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 $500, not $5000 Right...multiply that $500 by 10-15 Majors a year. That gets you into the $5,000 range. You haven't shown a plan where that money is coming from. I think you have the cart before the horse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted March 17, 2008 Author Share Posted March 17, 2008 And, WHEN the exposure goes up, so does the interest in the gun companies/suppliers to align themselves with the pros. More exposure equals more money in sponsorships for more people. Exposure where? Talk to McBane-- Gun companies could care less about a bunch of guys shooting STI 2011's. "Back in the Day", Colt had a big team. S&W had a big team... Springfield had a big team.. back then IPSC was the cutting edge... not anymore. The interest in what the pros are doing would go way up among the shooting world. That is exposure to the masses who are the shooting industries tarted demographics. The newspapers and TV news would report on a competition when someone is winning $10,000 for a match. YES, exposure. magazines, other than Front Sight would show results etc.... How is that? The the Colt, S&W, Springfields, Glocks of the world would step up accordingly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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