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Amateurs vs. Professionals


zhunter

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And, WHEN the exposure goes up, so does the interest in the gun companies/suppliers to align themselves with the pros. More exposure equals more money in sponsorships for more people.

High exposure, do you think as President of the USPSA, MV does not get more than a shooter of similar caliber? Of course he does, that is the nature of the business. Shooting related companies certainly understand exposure and how to get it.

So untill then... the "pros" are just SOL?

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$500, not $5000

Right...multiply that $500 by 10-15 Majors a year. That gets you into the $5,000 range.

You haven't shown a plan where that money is coming from.

What money are you talking about?

I did show that. Post #13 has an example.

It has been going on in golf for decades. And as TL pointed out, some of the other shooting sports as well.

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And, WHEN the exposure goes up, so does the interest in the gun companies/suppliers to align themselves with the pros. More exposure equals more money in sponsorships for more people.

High exposure, do you think as President of the USPSA, MV does not get more than a shooter of similar caliber? Of course he does, that is the nature of the business. Shooting related companies certainly understand exposure and how to get it.

So untill then... the "pros" are just SOL?

How are the "pros" SOL???

Put your money up, and win or have a high finish, and you will be rewarded. YOU like Smitty seem to be able to hold your own. What are you worried about?

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He's probably worried about getting 40 other shooters to support him. NWIH 40 people are going to put up a $500 match fee today on the chance they'll make the top 8. It's way too long a shot for the bottom 25 of those 40.

I know I can place in the top 20 at Nationals, but I wouldn't put down my $500 on those odds.

But, I could be wrong. How about putting up the match and seeing who shows???

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Botton line is we're like Pool; there's some great talent, but no real money in the tournaments. Pro or Amatuer, you starve. As a result great pool players have to have day jobs and hustle on the side. Top shooters are not usually seen winning money from D-class locals, but they do work day jobs and find what they can on the side.

It's a shame, look at how well dum ole' NASCAR is promoted? Or Golf. I bet ZH can come up with a number, but I bet the #25 or #50 golfer in the world doesn't have to do anything else and probably still makes enough off endorsements to be comfortable.

We ain't that sport. We are a local club level hobby, with no real pro venue. Just an open call a couple times a year to decide who the best is. Yes, those that came before us (as in I take no credit for any of it) did wonders for the evolution of gun handling and emplyment at speed, but the TV watching, product buying public don't care about that, therefore no sponsor money, therefore, damn few true "paid only by shooting" professionals.

Do I EXPECT to beat the top "pros"? No.

Will I keep trying heads up because I want to test myself against the best? abso-friggin-lutely. :cheers:

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He's probably worried about getting 40 other shooters to support him. NWIH 40 people are going to put up a $500 match fee today on the chance they'll make the top 8. It's way too long a shot for the bottom 25 of those 40.

But, I could be wrong. How about putting up the match and seeing who shows???

As the fund goes up, the number of paid places goes up as well. The breakdown I gave in an earlier post was just a quick example, and by no means the be all end all way of doing it. On the PGA Tour the winner gets 20% of the purse and they pay the top 70 places out of a field of 144. As the purse get larger, the percentage of the top place can go down to pay more places, but initially, you need a large top prize to bring in the shooters.

Hey, to repeat, I am not saying I have it figure out, but I do think the idea works. And I for one would be much more inclined to watch a super squad at a match when there was/is something riding on it besides a trophy or plaque.

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Truth be known Z, they all want a Fat Cat deal like Robbie got from Springfield...and it just isn't going to happen...Makes it a lot harder to pony up your own $$ than a sponsors $$...also got to understand that there will never be any substantial TV $$ cause it is not a "gen'teal" sport like golf or tennis. It is true that most TOP shooters make most of their $$ from teaching but if there were a Pro Circuit, they could quit teaching and just shoot, if they thought they were good enough. That is what makes the entire idea so appealing...watching the top guys go after each other for real $$ like 150K or so to the winner, but I doubt it will ever happen....like I say, there are no Titanic Thompsons out there willing to try their hand, noone like Snead or Hagen who would never think of teeing it up without something on the line ( and I mean more than buying the refreshments after the round)...

Also as I said, go watch a Pigeon contest, more money made and lost on the 10 bird miss/out than most of the big pistol matches entire prize table not to mentiont he main race...Bob Brister built a 3500 sq foot house in Houston with cash he won shooting hand thrown pigeons...

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Pro sports succeed for pros because there are spectator dollars available. Big sports have big dollars because of TV dollars. This includes golf.

Practical shooting has its spectators' dollars too. The difference in practical shooting is that the spectators also get to shoot.

Professional practical pistol shooting may have an audience. But the USPSA is ill equipped to provide the venues or the structure.

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$500, not $5000

Right...multiply that $500 by 10-15 Majors a year. That gets you into the $5,000 range.

You haven't shown a plan where that money is coming from.

What money are you talking about?

I did show that. Post #13 has an example.

It has been going on in golf for decades. And as TL pointed out, some of the other shooting sports as well.

Golf has had mass market appeal for quite a while. There are hundreds of thousands of hackers ready to buy the next Big Bertha. I haven't seen any action pistol shooters on the Johnny Carson show. Nike isn't knocking at the door. Hunters don't get us. Martial-artist and tactical guys don't get us.

The pie is small. I can't see the path where paying more for pie is going to get us more pie.

Steel Challenge has had the $20,000 prize...and sponsorship and TV coverage. Stuff like that might take off, but it hasn't yet. (there is a path there...)

I think we need to get on ESPN first. Get some Chevy trucks and Red Bull money.

Golf doesn't seem like a good comparison to me. Maybe lumber-jacking or bass fishing (and I don't know that we can compare to those).

When I ask where the entry fee money is coming from, I am asking how Smitty, Ben and I are going to afford it? How is the AMU going to afford it? Where we are now, you are just making it even more expensive to compete. I don't see the path to the pay off.

We don't belong to country clubs, we belong to shooting shacks.

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Pro sports succeed for pros because there are spectator dollars available. Big sports have big dollars because of TV dollars. This includes golf.

There are several regional mini-tours in golf that work exactly in the premise I have put forth. The Grey Goose Gateway Tour (just google it) has guys putting up about $1200 for 15 tournaments a year. There are approximately 144 players each week, and someone wins a bunch of money each week. matter of fact, most weeks there is a waiting list to get in.

Maybe TL is right, maybe the shooters, for lack of better term, don't have the guts to do it.

It works, plain and simple. NO TV money, no one paying to come and watch.

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And, WHEN the exposure goes up, so does the interest in the gun companies/suppliers to align themselves with the pros. More exposure equals more money in sponsorships for more people.

High exposure, do you think as President of the USPSA, MV does not get more than a shooter of similar caliber? Of course he does, that is the nature of the business. Shooting related companies certainly understand exposure and how to get it.

So untill then... the "pros" are just SOL?

How are the "pros" SOL???

Put your money up, and win or have a high finish, and you will be rewarded. YOU like Smitty seem to be able to hold your own. What are you worried about?

Because I can't afford to pay a $500 entry fee for a match.

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When I ask where the entry fee money is coming from, I am asking how Smitty, Ben and I are going to afford it?

Self belief, gotta believe Flex!!!

Like I said earlier, it is an investment in your business. But the money up, perform well, and get paid.

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I think a Pro Circuit could make it, but it would have to be separate from USPSA is every aspect, just like amateur golf is separate from Pro....and it would have to be managed by someone who could/would devote then entire efforst to the Pro aspect instead of current USPSA stuff...

Need to convince some big $$ guys in about 15 cities across the country to put up some big $$ then have the shooters pony up 500 each and come on down to the match...I bet 25 shooters would show up for a chance at 100k for first place and do it for 15 matches...and you might be surprised who would win...the best current match shooters aren't necessarily the best Pro Circuit money shooters...I'd bet $$ on that...

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When I ask where the entry fee money is coming from, I am asking how Smitty, Ben and I are going to afford it?

Like I said earlier, it is an investment in your business. But the money up, perform well, and get paid.

We're not doing it for a buisness. If I had to pay $500 for a match I couldn't shoot.

I won L10 at A8 a couple of years back. I got much for than $500 out of the deal. I'm not a professional, and I doubt that anyone would disagree with me. But now you want me to compete in a class where I'll loose everytime?

Edited by Matt Cheely
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When I ask where the entry fee money is coming from, I am asking how Smitty, Ben and I are going to afford it?

Self belief, gotta believe Flex!!!

Like I said earlier, it is an investment in your business. But the money up, perform well, and get paid.

I do this for fun, it isn't my business.

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Because I can't afford to pay a $500 entry fee for a match.

Kinda like the lottery, can't win unless you play.

Ben, I have been in your shoes, 3 times as a professional. Each of those three weeks, I was DONE if I did not play well enough to win some money. Luckily, I did. But when your times comes and you can't do it, you retire from the pro ranks. Plain and simple. Sure, as a guy starting out, scraping up $500 for an entry is damn tough. Do you have more pressure on you to perform, yes you do. Did most everyone who does it and is successful go thru that stage, YES. Hey, just like in every business, it is not easy, and success is not easily attained.

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This all is a great reason to stick to shooting club matches and trophy only tournaments. Money has soiled this sport like all others. Some guys only wanna shoot matches where there is something to be won, which will always be funded by the general masses. If we all wanted to see who the best was, merely for honor and pride, there would never be a prize table, matches would be a $5 entry and we could all hug and sing songs afterwards. No one would able to bitch about expenses anymore either if you no longer had to pay more than pocketchange for a match fee.

I agree a Pro class is a good idea, but it aint gonna happen. The game isnt about just pride anymore, at least not to some of us.

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you could if you won a few of them

that is my point

I think a Pro Circuit could make it, but it would have to be separate from USPSA is every aspect, just like amateur golf is separate from Pro....and it would have to be managed by someone who could/would devote then entire efforst to the Pro aspect instead of current USPSA stuff...

Need to convince some big $$ guys in about 15 cities across the country to put up some big $$ then have the shooters pony up 500 each and come on down to the match...I bet 25 shooters would show up for a chance at 100k for first place and do it for 15 matches...and you might be surprised who would win...the best current match shooters aren't necessarily the best Pro Circuit money shooters...I'd bet $$ on that...

TL, I agree, when the stakes change, so do the results.

Ben, then nothing would change for you, you shoot just as you did before, as GM in Production if my memory serves me correctly. No big deal.

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Maybe TL is right, maybe the shooters, for lack of better term, don't have the guts to do it.

Maybe...for lack of a better term...shooters are smart enough to do the math and aren't caught up with how big their nut sack is.

I know how to win money on bets...I mostly win. It's pretty simple really. You take bets when you have good odds of winning, and you pass on bets where the odds aren't in your favor.

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Maybe TL is right, maybe the shooters, for lack of better term, don't have the guts to do it.

Maybe...for lack of a better term...shooters are smart enough to do the math and aren't caught up with how big their nut sack is.

I know how to win money on bets...I mostly win. It's pretty simple really. You take bets when you have good odds of winning, and you pass on bets where the odds aren't in your favor.

That is what pre-match practice days are for ;)

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I think the idea has potential - although at first I would say the entry fee should be around 200 or 250....which is just like nationals. Eventually with time it may be feasible to have high dollar entry fees and pay outs but I think the sport needs a lot more maturity before that happens....don't forget how many hundreds of years golf has been played for. Shooting is an infant in comparison in every way.

I'd definitely like to see that match happen though.

And the reason it becomes possible for me is that you don't have to win the match to get a decent pay out. If 10th place (or whatever) is still paying out enough money to cover your entry fee, it makes it reasonable for the lesser-tier GMs to go for it.

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