chuckbradley Posted March 4, 2008 Share Posted March 4, 2008 This past weekend my son shot a 8" plate at 12 yards. He felt a sting in his hand. After holstering we started looking at it and blood started running. Having had 2 pieces of jacket surgically removed from my knees I told him to feel around to make sure there wasnt any metal still inside. There were 3 slices on 2 fingers. Sure enough he found a piece that took tweezers several attempts to remove. It seemed as if it would never end as it was coming out. Actually it was only about 1/2 inch long and 1/4 inch wide. It was thin like a razor blade. It entered one finger and then exited and then entered the finger it was removed from. I got to thinking what if it had hit a vital area like in the neck and cut the jugular. I am sure there are other areas this could have caused serious or fatal injury. It did cut a nerve as he has no feeling in that side of his finger. Here he is on You Tube shooting last year. I looked at the steel plate and it had a flange that was used to stand the plate up. It was welded on. While Ro'ing I was peppered several times from the same plate. The weld created a curve which I believe acted like a chute to send splatter back at the crowd. I really believe we (USPSA) need to study steel construction and provide some guidelines as to its construction. There shouldn't be any edges that would act as a guide sending splatter back at the shooter and crowd. The front surface needs to be completely flat so the splatter will travel the same plane as the face of the steel. Safety is something we talk so much about and yet sometimes things like this are not considered. We, shooters, are going to be under more and more scrutiny as time goes on. Steel splatter needs to be seriously considered when setting up a stage or designing and constructing steel targets. One of the pieces I had removed from a knee was due to the stage being set up where a popper was perpendicular to where the squad would stand. We were looking right at the side of the popper. The other was a popper that somebody had shot with a rifle and there was a big crater in it. Just something for us to consider as we practice our sport so we can continue to practice it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Cheely Posted March 4, 2008 Share Posted March 4, 2008 I have seen several popper designs that are good for function, but allow splatter back at the shooter. The plate needs to be totally flat of course, but also the popper base and associated hardware all have to be behind the plate. Too many times I've seen a nice flat popper, with another flat piece of metal near the base that sprays shrapnel directly uprange. Clubs need to pony up for new popper/plates when they become pitted/cracked, and too many clubs keep on using old steel because of the costs. I'm not sure how you'd make clubs do it, but a printed guideline wouldn't be a bad idea IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Keen Posted March 4, 2008 Share Posted March 4, 2008 Nice idea Matt. I know our club just got some new steel, and no it wasn't cheap. As far as the injury goes I hope all turns out well in the end Chuck. I got hit by a piece of shrapnel a couple of years ago .... in the neck. It was right in the front of my neck, and since I was RO'ing at the time, all I could do was hold my hand on it until I could clear the shooter. I was bleeding pretty bad at first but it subsided rather quickly. Still I never thought about how much more damage could have happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted March 4, 2008 Share Posted March 4, 2008 It is so common to get hit by splatter I see people get hit and not even verbalize it. Just rub the spot and keep on going. Some of the bruises I have seen by splatter or bouncing bullets off of steel are nasty. I have wondered what would have happened had some of them hit you in the mouth or eye. A severed jugular..... That would make the papers... This is not good... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted March 4, 2008 Share Posted March 4, 2008 We experienced some splatter from round plates with welded on bases, so I gathered all of the plates up and put them in the dumpster. I stole a design from forum member Sam where the surface of the plate is in front of all supporting members, including the stand. No more splatter. As for replacing old steel, that is one of my pet peeves. I have even offered to give free popper faces to a club where I frequently shoot and they didn't take me up on it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Keen Posted March 4, 2008 Share Posted March 4, 2008 It should be more than a pet-peeve .............. like Matt said it should be some sort of rule. There's way too much "thrifty-ness" (for lack of a better word) going on at the local club level, and it needs to be regulated some how. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted March 5, 2008 Share Posted March 5, 2008 I suggested a couple years ago that USPSA institute steel design standards. Are we ready yet? I'm all for economy, but steel targets with built-in rebound paths really don't have a place in the sport anymore. We have the materials and experience to prevent 99% of this stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlamoShooter Posted March 5, 2008 Share Posted March 5, 2008 I shoot a lot of steel the worst that I saw was off a target in the next bay in line with the shooters on the other side. The boy had a terible cut to his face. And One of our forum members has a pice still in his arm that hit a target base and came back to tag him. Both of the worst cut were at ipsc shoots Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingman Posted March 5, 2008 Share Posted March 5, 2008 I got a ding on my back this weekend that hurt from a bay across the other range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tgibson Posted March 5, 2008 Share Posted March 5, 2008 We have some home made steel at one of our local clubs that have the flat bases welded onto them. What we do to prevent the backsplash is put small pieces of 1x2 on edge in front of the surface the plates are sitting on. They get knocked off every time, but we have not had anyone splashed in a long time. Adios, TG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLG8R Posted March 5, 2008 Share Posted March 5, 2008 Sorry to hear about your son's finger. It might be a good idea to have his finger looked at by a hand surgeon, particularly if part of his finger is numb. From experience, it probably won't return on its own and may be important enough to consider having repaired...just a thought. flg8r Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos Posted March 5, 2008 Share Posted March 5, 2008 I suggested a couple years ago that USPSA institute steel design standards. Are we ready yet? I'm all for economy, but steel targets with built-in rebound paths really don't have a place in the sport anymore. We have the materials and experience to prevent 99% of this stuff. Good call. Make sure the new standards are not retroactive so it won't cost money-strapped clubs a dime unless they voluntarily choose to buy new steel in the future. Our former section coordinator was hit with a jacket fragment so hard that it penetrated his thumb-nail a few years back. Untill all steel is upgraded to the yet-to-be-determined standard and made forward-falling, maybe each club should use the down time during the winter months to re-condition their steel by grinding away the craters which cause fragments to come back at the shooter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwin garcia Posted March 5, 2008 Share Posted March 5, 2008 Thanks for this post. I really think there has to be a guideline/standard in designing and manufacturing steel targets. An RO in Area4 a few years back had a nick on his neck and missed his jugular by less than an inch. It really doesn't need a big sized shrapnel to sever a jugular vein. Imagine that shrapnel hitting his jugular in an area match-or any of USPSA match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Posted March 5, 2008 Share Posted March 5, 2008 Chuck, I hope your son heals up just fine. At home now, when I shoot steel with a pistol, I shoot frangilble bullets. Yes, they are more expensive. http://www.frangiblebullets.com/products/bullets/index.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckbradley Posted March 5, 2008 Author Share Posted March 5, 2008 Ryan should heal fine. We actually had a hand surgeon shooting that day but , I dont know why-probably not realizing how bad it was or that the numbing wasnt realized until the way home, we didnt ask him. I did however talk to him at the club meeting last night and he wants to look at his hand. We just have to consider all this when we set up stages and when buying or using steel. WE also need to consider placement of stages and targets. I was once Ro'ing an Area 5 match and my bay was right next to another longer bay where the shooters started far behind us. Didnt think anything of it since we had a good size berm between us. That was until I got thumped by a full , jagged 38 super bullet that bounced off the floor of the bay. Dont know if it just took that flight path because it was deformed or if it ricocheted of the awning support first. It felt like a sledge hammer hitting me on the chest. It healed up ok but again what if it had hit in a more vital area. They put a couple plastic barrels filled with sand behind the target and that reduced the probability of it happening again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted March 5, 2008 Share Posted March 5, 2008 FWIW, I make a lot of steel targets and I have tried every design imaginable. No matter how we look at it, there is some risk involved to shooting steel. I am all for minimizing that risk, but the truth is...the only way to eliminate all splatter is to make steel targets illegal. Also, I have spoken on the phone with a couple of steel target vendors about the plates with welded on bases. All of them went into denial that splash back was an issue, and they still catalog the items. One would think a responsible manufacturer would discontinue designs that are known to be flawed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted March 5, 2008 Share Posted March 5, 2008 (edited) Can the problem be 100% eliminated? No. But I think we can drastically reduce the problem. 1. All steel faces should be angled so that the splatter is directed toward the ground. 2. If the ground underneath the steel is bullet-reflecting, instead of absorbing, material should be placed on the ground to absorb the bullet. Sand, pea gravel, woodchips, whatever 3. Declare all steel with unmitigated ricochet paths illegal for use. This is not an impossible fix. If you're going to use knockover targets with T bases, do the 1x2 trick. Put a 2x4 on the ground right in front of the targets. Attach thick rubber belting to the fronts of the bases of old-style popper with all kinds of bullet-reflecting angle iron. Bullets will pass through, but the splatter will remain behind the rubber sheet. 4. Require all steel targets to have their faces parallel to the back berm. This will help mitigate side splatter getting launched from one bay into the peanut gallery of adjoining bays. 5. Demand that all new steel targets be USPSA-approved, just like paper targets. Poppers should be forward falling, with forward angled, hardened steel faces. All hinges and mechanisms must be faced with forward-facing, smooth steel with no more than Carriage bolts on the surface for retention. We all know that present circumstances are wrong. People are getting hurt unnecessarily Aside from the "grandfathering" issue, which is a political/economic issue, it's really not that tough. Will there be costs? Yes there will. Tack it onto the match fee. It's worth it. Edited March 5, 2008 by EricW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckbradley Posted March 15, 2008 Author Share Posted March 15, 2008 Sorry to hear about your son's finger. It might be a good idea to have his finger looked at by a hand surgeon, particularly if part of his finger is numb. From experience, it probably won't return on its own and may be important enough to consider having repaired...just a thought.flg8r The finger is healed and he has most the feeling back now. The hand surgeon who was at the match told me what to look for and what could be fixed. He also said a nerve can be partially damaged or shocked. If this is the case the feeling would return over time. Think it will be fine but we need to address this problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckbradley Posted March 15, 2008 Author Share Posted March 15, 2008 I talked to one steel manufacturer today who was aware of this problem and has changed their design to alleviate it. When they develop new targets they do extensive testing to make sure the design does not send splatter back. I also talked to a customer who had addressed this issue with another steel manufacturer who was in denial and still makes steel plates with the flat edge that is the root of the problem. This is the reason USPSA needs to address steel design for their matches. They know its a problem so if we did have an serious accident what kind of liability would there be? Until then it will be up to us to be sure the steel we shoot is safe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted March 15, 2008 Share Posted March 15, 2008 It might be nice to post pics of good and bad design (if it can be done without "outing" anybody). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punkin Chunker Posted March 15, 2008 Share Posted March 15, 2008 (edited) I looked at the steel plate and it had a flange that was used to stand the plate up. It was welded on. While Ro'ing I was peppered several times from the same plate. The weld created a curve which I believe acted like a chute to send splatter back at the crowd. I really believe we (USPSA) need to study steel construction and provide some guidelines as to its construction. There shouldn't be any edges that would act as a guide sending splatter back at the shooter and crowd. The front surface needs to be completely flat so the splatter will travel the same plane as the face of the steel. Safety is something we talk so much about and yet sometimes things like this are not considered. We, shooters, are going to be under more and more scrutiny as time goes on. Steel splatter needs to be seriously considered when setting up a stage or designing and constructing steel targets. One of the pieces I had removed from a knee was due to the stage being set up where a popper was perpendicular to where the squad would stand. We were looking right at the side of the popper. The other was a popper that somebody had shot with a rifle and there was a big crater in it. Just something for us to consider as we practice our sport so we can continue to practice it. Great post and some good points to keep in mind for set-ups. When I started shooting in '83, the club had a rule against shooting steel with jacketed bullets because of this concern. I doubt there's any likelihood of that rule coming back, but it made sense. Most of the splatter wounds I've seen/experienced have come when shooters were using jacketed hollow points. Edited March 15, 2008 by Punkin Chunker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted March 15, 2008 Share Posted March 15, 2008 Chuck, I think this information needs to be passed to the Area Directors and NROI. I agree that we need to have some standards with regards to steel target construction. Better to start that now rather than later when someone gets really hurt. The correct decision, angled as Eric mentioned should eliminate the vast majority of ricochets. I think NROI should be issuing guidelines/rules on what is or is not acceptable in a metal target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckbradley Posted March 15, 2008 Author Share Posted March 15, 2008 I looked at the steel plate and it had a flange that was used to stand the plate up. It was welded on. While Ro'ing I was peppered several times from the same plate. The weld created a curve which I believe acted like a chute to send splatter back at the crowd. I really believe we (USPSA) need to study steel construction and provide some guidelines as to its construction. There shouldn't be any edges that would act as a guide sending splatter back at the shooter and crowd. The front surface needs to be completely flat so the splatter will travel the same plane as the face of the steel. Safety is something we talk so much about and yet sometimes things like this are not considered. We, shooters, are going to be under more and more scrutiny as time goes on. Steel splatter needs to be seriously considered when setting up a stage or designing and constructing steel targets. One of the pieces I had removed from a knee was due to the stage being set up where a popper was perpendicular to where the squad would stand. We were looking right at the side of the popper. The other was a popper that somebody had shot with a rifle and there was a big crater in it. Just something for us to consider as we practice our sport so we can continue to practice it. Great post and some good points to keep in mind for set-ups. When I started shooting in '83, the club had a rule against shooting steel with jacketed bullets because of this concern. I doubt there's any likelihood of that rule coming back, but it made sense. Most of the splatter wounds I've seen/experienced have come when shooters were using jacketed hollow points. He was shooting JHP's but the metal was lead. I personally dont think the type of bullet has much to do with it. THey all will splatter. The direction of splatter is the key. I feel the guys saying its the bad JHP is the same types that are saying we shouldnt shoot fast since its unsafe and out of control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckbradley Posted March 15, 2008 Author Share Posted March 15, 2008 Chuck,I think this information needs to be passed to the Area Directors and NROI. I agree that we need to have some standards with regards to steel target construction. Better to start that now rather than later when someone gets really hurt. At least some have been made aware. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted March 15, 2008 Share Posted March 15, 2008 I e-mail'd NROI to see if they have any feedback... I will post any response here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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