Steel Safety

[JFlowers]

Splashback has always been a significant problem for the cowboy shooters. Maybe some conversations with them on how they are fighting the problem might help.

[Punkin Chunker]

Great post and some good points to keep in mind for set-ups.

When I started shooting in '83, the club had a rule against shooting steel with jacketed bullets because of this concern. I doubt there's any likelihood of that rule coming back, but it made sense.

Most of the splatter wounds I've seen/experienced have come when shooters were using jacketed hollow points.

He was shooting JHP's but the metal was lead. I personally dont think the type of bullet has much to do with it. THey all will splatter. The direction of splatter is the key. I feel the guys saying its the bad JHP is the same types that are saying we shouldnt shoot fast since its unsafe and out of control.

Thank you for supporting what I said by confirming it was JHP ammo that caused the injury, but then, I didn't say it was the "bad JHP" nor did I say it was the jacket -- I just made an observation. How many splatter wounds have YOU seen from RNL? I havn't seen any, although I'm sure someone has seen some, somewhere.

As far as shooting fast goes -- I been shooting as fast as I can (which really isn't all that fast) for awhile, even though I really don't like being too close when JHP is being used on steel. Not sure how the two are connected.

[ffl]

I to have been hit by splatter as well as other members of my squad during matches.

As a sponsor of the USPSA Nationals as well as shooters we are always looking for new and innovative products. We have a star design that eliminates spatter as well as a new design of a forward falling popper that has specifically been tested and design to stop the splatter from bullets coming back to the shooter or crowd.

You can see our Ad in Front Sight or see our products on our web site. Http://www.securefirearmproducts.com We are a dealer on BE Forum as well.

If you want to see our products in person we will be at the NRA National Meetings in Louisville Ky, NRA Bianchi Cup in Columbia, MO, International Revolver Championships in Morro Bay, CA and at the PRO-Am Shoot in July at USSA in Tulsa, OK.

Our first design of Forward Falling Popper did have splatter from the welded on hinge area. We specifically changed the design of the hinge area to stop the splatter.

Our target releasing mechanism we use on our popper is sold without steel plates so existing USPSA spec. Popper plates can be fitted to the target release thereby saving money to the club.

David

[JFlowers]

Punkin,

When I shot SASS I was nailed many times by huge chunks of lead, all from RN and RNFP bullets. Shooting at a monthly match in Walnut grove, NC I was ROing a shooter and I swear I saw the bullet from the time it left the target til it impacted my cheek. And that was a 250 grain 45 caliber RNFP sitting on a full case of black powder. JHP just tend to throw sharp shards of jacket back at you rather than a solid chunk of lead.

Target design is the single most pressing issue in dealing with splashback. In SASS the trick was a steel plate that had a forward angle at rest and would allow the bottom to swing backwards on impact. That drove most of the splatter down into the ground. With falling plates, the trick is to not have a ledge on the face of the target. What happens is the splatter rides the face of the target and the ledge the redirects it back towards the shooter. The typical plate with a welded on "inverted T" base, while the simplest and easiest to have made locally, is not a good design.

[chuckbradley]

I have had 2 pieces of Jacket surgically removed, one from each knee. One was a factory 9mm American Eagle FMJ round. That one was because of the location of the popper in relation to the crowd. The other was a 200 grain jacketed zero Full Metal Truncated Cone. This time it was a popper that had been shot with a .223 and was cratered. The reason I used the fast shooting analogy is because I dont believe JHP is any more unsafe in relation to other bullet type just like fast shooting isnt any more unsafe than slow shooting. I believe both thoughts to be without any real merit.

[warpspeed]

I have shot steel many times at several clubs.

without naming names, one club has such bad looking steel, I won't shot it any longer with a pistol. I have only been cut 3 times with splatter. All 3 at the same club. Does design affect splatter ? sure. But more I think the condition of the steel plays a bigger role. If the steel has big craters, is dished or cracked, I won't shoot it.

My 2 pennies.

[Punkin Chunker]

I have had 2 pieces of Jacket surgically removed, one from each knee. One was a factory 9mm American Eagle FMJ round. That one was because of the location of the popper in relation to the crowd. The other was a 200 grain jacketed zero Full Metal Truncated Cone. This time it was a popper that had been shot with a .223 and was cratered. The reason I used the fast shooting analogy is because I dont believe JHP is any more unsafe in relation to other bullet type just like fast shooting isnt any more unsafe than slow shooting. I believe both thoughts to be without any real merit.

And to date, I have now had a total of 1 shooter share an experience of lead bullets causing splatter wounds, about 25 with FMJ splatter wounds, and probably 65 - 70 with JHP wounds (who keeps track?) ranging from nicks to a sliver of a jacket that embedded in my arm about 1/2" or so. Surgically removed? Wow -- sounds like you have special insight into the situation.

Will any bullet splatter? Sure, under the right conditions. My point was; which is most likely to splatter?

I still shoot JHP myself, going on the theory that the danger area is such a small MOA, I'll probably get away with it without any really serious problems. It's not going to change any time soon, and I would hate to see that kind of restriction come back. Eventually there may even be that dramatic injury that gets everyone hyperventilating. We just do what we can through common sense, stage design, and target engineering, to reduce it as much as possible.

Hope the injury keeps getting better.

[chuckbradley]

I have had 2 pieces of Jacket surgically removed, one from each knee. One was a factory 9mm American Eagle FMJ round. That one was because of the location of the popper in relation to the crowd. The other was a 200 grain jacketed zero Full Metal Truncated Cone. This time it was a popper that had been shot with a .223 and was cratered. The reason I used the fast shooting analogy is because I dont believe JHP is any more unsafe in relation to other bullet type just like fast shooting isnt any more unsafe than slow shooting. I believe both thoughts to be without any real merit.

Surgically removed? Wow -- sounds like you have special insight into the situation.

Antagonistic tone noted. Actually I used the word surgically because that was in fact how they had to be removed. I like to use all the facts. It shows they were not just cuts or nicks. I also said it to show it was not JHP bullets and I relayed what kind of steel or condition that caused it. We are here to learn and improve our shooting. I think safety may fall into that category.

Will any bullet splatter? Sure, under the right conditions. My point was; which is most likely to splatter?

All bullets splatter, the direction is what we need to control.

I still shoot JHP myself, going on the theory that the danger area is such a small MOA, I'll probably get away with it without any really serious problems. It's not going to change any time soon, and I would hate to see that kind of restriction come back.

Then it would be best not to blame a particular kind of bullet when the theory has no merit.

Eventually there may even be that dramatic injury that gets everyone hyperventilating. We just do what we can through common sense, stage design, and target engineering, to reduce it as much as possible.

Hope the injury keeps getting better.

This is why I posted this so it would bring light to the problem of poorly designed steel, Stage design , and steel in poor condition. The more those involved know what to look for and why they need to look the more it will be done.

[Punkin Chunker]

Antagonistic tone noted. Actually I used the word surgically because that was in fact how they had to be removed. I like to use all the facts. It shows they were not just cuts or nicks. I also said it to show it was not JHP bullets and I relayed what kind of steel or condition that caused it. We are here to learn and improve our shooting. I think safety may fall into that category.

Whoa -- unload and show clear, Chuck. Antagonism was not intended. I think taking shrapnel to that degree does entitle you to some insight.

Will any bullet splatter? Sure, under the right conditions. My point was; which is most likely to splatter?

All bullets splatter, the direction is what we need to control.

Okay, so to more precisely state the point -- Will any bullet endanger shooters with splatter? Sure, under the right conditions. My point was; which is most likely to endanger shooters with splatter?

I still shoot JHP myself, going on the theory that the danger area is such a small MOA, I'll probably get away with it without any really serious problems. It's not going to change any time soon, and I would hate to see that kind of restriction come back.

Then it would be best not to blame a particular kind of bullet when the theory has no merit. .

No merit? Hey, I'm open to inputs from anyone who has experienced splatter injury. What type of bullet? How serious was the wound? What were the conditions?

From what I've seen, jacketed is more likely to endanger shooters with splatter than lead, and JHP is more likely to endanger shooters with splatter than FMJ. So far, everything you've posted supports that idea, which you want to discount as having no merit.

But as I said -- I'm open to inputs from anyone who has experienced/witnessed/shucks, even anecdotal, "My brother-in-law has a friend who . . ." heard about -- splatter wounds. There are plenty of shooters out there who have lots more range time than I do. Not that many will weigh in on this, but it might make an interesting poll, if it could be balanced for the types of bullets used (can't speak for SASS, but most USPSA matches I've seen have a blend of RNL/JHP/FMJ).

Eventually there may even be that dramatic injury that gets everyone hyperventilating. We just do what we can through common sense, stage design, and target engineering, to reduce it as much as possible.

Hope the injury keeps getting better.

This is why I posted this so it would bring light to the problem of poorly designed steel, Stage design , and steel in poor condition. The more those involved know what to look for and why they need to look the more it will be done.

And it's great that you shared this with the forum. I hope everyone involved with steel, stage design, and set-ups benefits from your experience and that the ongoing issue of safety is advanced thereby.

For my part, this equine has expired, unless someone wants to jump in with how they experienced/witnessed/shucks, even anecdotal, "My brother-in-law has a friend who . . ." heard about -- splatter wounds.

Edited March 16, 2008 by Punkin Chunker

[chuckbradley]

I read your post as being sarcastic.

Surgically removed? Wow -- sounds like you have special insight into the situation.

I still see it as being sarcastic but you may not have meant it that way and if not then I was mistaken and I apologize.

[Punkin Chunker]

I read your post as being sarcastic.

Surgically removed? Wow -- sounds like you have special insight into the situation.

I still see it as being sarcastic but you may not have meant it that way and if not then I was mistaken and I apologize.

Chuck, -- when you said jacket shards in the knees and surgical removal -- man, I ached for you.

I've been stuck with shards, fish hooks, a stingray barb, a humongous thorn, but nothing in the knee -- I wouldn't be sarcastic about that kind of thing.

Although (it's been rumored) I can be sarcastic at times.

[shred]

JHP's may splatter more because they are designed to break up on impact. But, on the flip side, the frags are much smaller and less likely to cause major injury.

There's an FBI training document (linked here: http://www.policeone.com/police-products/t...articles/67903/) that says "A desirable round to produce consistent [desirable] splatter is a jacketed hollow-point with a velocity of 1225 fps".

By far the biggest splatter problem in the steel design is the 90-degree inside corner created by the 'ledge' or 'foot'-- splatter comes off the plate, then re-splatters off the ledge or foot back uprange towards the shooters. Imagine shooting a piece of angle iron from the wide side-- notice the 90 degree inside-corner? Notice where the frags have to go?

[Flexmoney]

Punkin,

If you want to keep going with the type of bullet line of thinking, please open a new thread to do so. Fwiw, I've seen shooters take plenty of hits from lead. Most of it from a club (non-affiliated) that has questionable steel.

This thread is about steel target design and I'd like to see it get back on track. (your "bullet type" would make for a good topic on it's own if you'd like to start it)

----------------

There is a new range that opened up just west of Columbus. They are in with one of the steel target manf. and they gave me a pamphlet that was all about steel target design and placement (for splatter). I'll see if I can dig that up.

I'd like to point out that we likely won't get much action on this unless we put forth a plan of action to the power's that be. Just saying that we see a problem...in my observation...isn't likely to yield results, unless we hit a hot button with somebody at the top of the food chain. The Prez and the VP are the only paid positions we have...

[Ron Ankeny]

I have seen data from several reliable sources that indicate the most desireable fragmentation is indeed from hollow points hauling the mail. I'll try to dig up some links.

Back on topic. Action Target company has an poop sheet available with some good info. Steel Target Resource Guide

A synopsis of the FBI training bulletin can be seen here: FBI Training Bulletin Synopsis

Edited March 17, 2008 by Ron Ankeny

[Flexmoney]

Thanks Ron. That is just the one I was thinking of.

[cking]

Keep rifle plates seperate from Pistol plates. Rifles even at 100 yards on BR500 steel will still look like bad case of acne. Now use those plates at 30 feet with JHP pistol and spatter will happen. This something most clubs don't pay attention too. Make sure you post a notice, shoot with AP rifle and you bought the plate.

[Carlos]

Here is a photo I found recently, which is only identified as "Russian Snipers practicing at night" - though the back stop material is not known (could be steel, could be frozen ground), notice the trajectory of the rounds going over the berm:

Interesting pic I thought.

Edited March 25, 2008 by Carlos