Chasing ratings......Why?

[Blueridge]

After reading and posting to this forum for a while, it seemed to me that there is a strong focus on ratings over general improvement. Of the many match results I have read online from several states, it seems to me that being an "A" (for example) means little when you have lower rated shooters often finishing ahead of you. I have seen where shooters who "own" classifiers have just as much trouble with match stages as novice shooters.

I post this because I have read a number of posts from people who (for example) have the goal of making "A" by the end of the year, when it would make more sense to me to shoot matches better. I can see the benefit of classifications grouping shooters in categories, but don't see the ratings being the best measure of skill.

Edited February 15, 2008 by Blueridge

[Hoofy]

I don't see the ratings being the best measure of skill.

And so we have 2 camps. Sandbaggers will take note.

[flyingchange]

Different people want different things.

[ChuckS]

Partially, it is a function of the pond you normally swim in. In some places, getting your A card pretty much puts you near the top of the heap. Other places, it is just a step in the journey. Take, for example, a guy who shoots at Rio Salado in Mesa, Az. To win the club match, he probably has to beat Rob Leatham (or Nils ). If that shooter goes to the nationals, he probably has to beat Rob Leatham. In his eyes, the goal is to beat TGO, nothing less.

Later,

Chuck

[tgibson]

I was actually having a discussion about this with one of my buddies just the other day. We have what we call Grandbaggers at our club. They are guys that will find out which classifier is going to be at the next club match and then practice it over and over. Then, if they don't feel like they shot it well enough, they will pay another two or three bucks and shoot it again!

Here are my two trains of thought:

1. Who cares if you are a Master class shooter if you are getting your a$$ handed to you by a bunch of B class shooters?

2. The classification system ONLY tests the shooters ability. It does not test the shooters stage tactics, movement ability, "gamability", etc.

I have no problem with this because I have been to a bunch of matches where I was the B shooter whippin' up on the M shooters. I can also honestly say and swear on a stack of bibles that I have never tanked a classifier on purpouse. I try to shoot all of them just like I shoot the rest of the match that day. This way, my classification is a true indication of my ability.

This was verified when Manny Bragg came and did a class and taught a class at our local club. I think I shot about a 72% or 73% of his overall match score. At that time I was a High B class shooter. I thought that was right about where I should be. The same thing happened at the A1 match last year.

My $.02

TG

[JFlowers]

Because at the moment that "A" rating is the best defined quantitifier available. Yes, it has its owns issue, both with the way some people treat it and some with things it does not measure, but it is the best game in town at the moment.

[Nik Habicht]

I post this because I have read a number of posts from people who (for example) have the goal of making "A" by the end of the year, when it would make more sense to me to shoot matches better.

I don't know --- it may not be the best goal, but if you're going to raise your draw, transitions, splits, reloads, and shot calling enough to move up a class, then that would probably carry over at least a little toward overall ability. And if you're really focused on those improvements, and not just blasting brown as fast as possible, hoping for the alphas, then the odds are pretty good that you're focused on other improvements as well....

None of the above means that those have to be your goals --- you could approach it with the attitude of becoming the best competitor you can be, and let the classifications jumps happen organically, as the end result of the focus on competitiveness.....

Doesn't mean others are wrong, just means they're different....

[Ron Ankeny]

The USPSA Website and Club Manual both mention something along the lines of shooters viewing the classification system as a huge postal match. It gives folks from sparsley populated areas (as far as USPSA shooting) who don't get away from home much a way of comparing their "classifier skills" to others across the country.

Through the years we have had several folks in our club set a higher class as a goal. Each of them did indeed improve along the way. After they pumped all of those resources into making the goal, some of them backed off and no longer push as hard. I am one of those people. As a result, their match performance isn't in line with their classification and that is perfectly understandable. To call those folks names and accuse them of unethical behavior is insulting and degrading, so I have removed the terms sandbagger and grandbagger from my vocabulary.

Frankly, I am a strong proponet of every one shooting heads up and just eliminate the classification system altogether.

[Merlin Orr]

The USPSA Website and Club Manual both mention something along the lines of shooters viewing the classification system as a huge postal match. It gives folks from sparsley populated areas (as far as USPSA shooting) who don't get away from home much a way of comparing their "classifier skills" to others across the country.

Through the years we have had several folks in our club set a higher class as a goal. Each of them did indeed improve along the way. After they pumped all of those resources into making the goal, some of them backed off and no longer push as hard. I am one of those people. As a result, their match performance isn't in line with their classification and that is perfectly understandable. To call those folks names and accuse them of unethical behavior is insulting and degrading, so I have removed the terms sandbagger and grandbagger from my vocabulary.

Frankly, I am a strong proponet of every one shooting heads up and just eliminate the classification system altogether.

Lots of good stuff right here. I pushed really hard shooting classifiers and ended up a class above where I belong. I don't consider myself either a Sand or Grand bagger.... I wish I had not gotten my last bump but I am here now and all I can do is try to shoot myself up to the performance level I feel an A should be at. I have a ways to go. Funny thing (to me) about the classification system... I started out thinking it was wonderful and allowed me (everyone) to win or place in their little "pool" as they progressed. I don't know when or why my feelings have changed but I now think heads up is as good as any - probably the best way to do this sport. Shoot your ass off and let the brass fall where it may.

[Joe4d]

Being an A or a Master is basically a way of competing against your self, sorta the same way people practice The El presidente and really dont care about any one else's score but their own. Match results can be misleading when I started IDPA I seemed to finish right around 12th place over all for a few years. But I had improved considerably. But so had the other 12 people as we were all new to competitive shooting. The only way to judge your improvement is an honest attempt at classifiers. How you place in a match only determines how good everyone else is. Alot of shooters dont care that much about places at a match they shoot for fun but still like to see that they are getting better. I for one feel moving up is a great acomplishment. I personally would rather be last place A class than first place B.

[Neomet]

I have to weigh in somewhere in the middle. I've got a whole 10 months in the USPSA so take it for what its worth here. I kinda like the system but feel the pull of the dark side. (No, not open... well yeah, that too.) What I like to see in my shooting at this point is improvement. I don't like relying entirely on how I feel after a stage or match, although that seems to be getting more accurate as I better define what it is that I consider a good run. The classifiers are hard, accurate judges of my ability, if only my stand and deliver ability. I can look back and see that my first couple of classifiers last year were almost negative numbers and that last Sunday I shot a B classifier. I am objectively improving.

Ahh, but the pull of the dark side. Why is it that I get more wound up on the classifier stage than the non-classifier? Why do I always try to shoot it last because I know I shoot better after a few runs? Part of it is that I feel like I am being graded and I am kinda motivated by that. The other part is that there is a certain feeling of pride at making the next level. Not sure if that is just because it denotes a certain skill level or if there is more ego involved.

The simple truth is that I am just as good as I am. No more and no less. I think in the end I would do better to pay less attention to my classification or results and more to my practice and techniques, but I do think there is certainly value in seeing how I measure up either against a fixed standard or in rankings at the matches.

But like I said, what do I know? I'm still the FNG on the block.

edited because I shouldn't try to type when I'm tired.

Edited February 16, 2008 by Neomet

[Blueridge]

I'm new on the block myself.

Being that I compete in CAS, IDPA, USPSA, and olympic style fencing (Foil, Epee, and Saber) it has been my experience that chasing ratings is often counterproductive. If you earn them along the way while improving your overall skills it seem the better way IMO. Nothing against those who have earned the higher ratings.

Heck, I chose to compete with revolvers in .45 Colt using speedloaders, when I could have used a .45 ACP that uses moon clips. For that matter I have a few autos that I could use instead of revolvers.

Edited February 16, 2008 by Blueridge

[North]

It is simply the best tool we have to measure ourselves against the top shooters. On any given day a "M" may get betten by a "B"; but you don't really see a "C" or "D" beating "GM's", "M's" or even "A's" on a regular basis.

Sure some folk's try to stay in a lower class than they should and some practice only the classifiers to get rated higher than they should. But eventually it catches up with them, Karma is a fickle bitch.

If you get to were you can nail any classifier to an "M" score; you my friend are one hell of a shooter. If you shoot at a Major match with any regularity your classification will match your skill level; sandbagging will only work for so long.

Most folks with the USPSA addiction either want to be the best they can or just want to shoot guns and enjoy the company. Most of the time it is both.

But if Farmer Bob wants to be an "A" shooter and never shoot a Major match; Great for him. As long as he is having fun and contributing to the sport we all win. He may be happy with that, but the young up and coming shooter can learn something from Farmer Bob. To be sucessful in the sport you need a lot of skills, the classifiers test several of them.

[Ron Ankeny]

As long as he is having fun and contributing to the sport we all win.

Gee, I like that attitude.

[JesseKH]

The classification system, like any system, can be manipulated. Thus we have grandbaggers and sandbaggers. But for the vast majority of us, it is a concrete indication of our improvement.

I, like probably everyone else shooting this sport, am a competitor. The first match I shot, I came in last on every stage, and , coincidentally, overall. The tremendous fun I had kept me coming back, but much determined to do better. I take personal satisfaction in the improvements I've made since then (still have a loooong way to go), but if I was still coming in last, I may not feel as good. I defy anybody here to go to a shoot, have the best match of their life, do things they have not been able to do before, and, despite their high level of personal satisfaction, not go home and immedialely check the standings. That's the nature of competition and competitors. The classification system, and moving up it, is an extension of this competitiveness.

Edited February 17, 2008 by JesseKH

[Blueridge]

The classification system, like any system, can be manipulated. Thus we have grandbaggers and sandbaggers. But for the vast majority of us, it is a concrete indication of our improvement.

I, like probably everyone else shooting this sport, am a competitor. The first match I shot, I came in last on every stage, and , coincidentally, overall. The tremendous fun I had kept me coming back, but much determined to do better. I take personal satisfaction in the improvements I've made since then (still have a loooong way to go), but if I was still coming in last, I may not feel as good. I defy anybody here to go to a shoot, have the best match of their life, do things they have not been able to do before, and, despite their high level of personal satisfaction, not go home and immedialely check the standings. That's the nature of competition and competitors. The classification system, and moving up it, is an extension of this competitiveness.

I see the classifiers and the matches as two different creatures. I am a competitive fencer and in fencing there is a classification system also. The ratings go from "E" up to "A", and are based off of how athletes finish in rated tournaments. The ratings are used to even out the pools, by spreading out the rated fencers evenly over the initial pools. Th results from the pools are used to place the fencers into the direct elimination brackets to the finals. Having a particular rating helps in your placement in the pools, as the higher rated fencers won't generally meet until the direct elimination brackets.

Now I compete in all three weapon categories (Foil, Epee, and Saber) and have never made it above "D" rating. That said I have qualified (and competed in) the last 8 US Fencing Summer Nationals (Div. II & III), which is more than many in my division can say that are higher rated than myself. My classification/rating is seperate from my actual fencing accomplishments, as my classification does not reflect how well I have done in competition generally.

Yes improvement made shooting classifiers show growth, but does not directly mirror how well a shooter will do in actual matches. With classifiers being posted for everyone to see, it is easier to prepare for them. Matches are a different animal because of the limited time to prepare to shoot them. You get one shot at stages in a match, as opposed to the multiple chances you can have to practice classifiers.

[Rocket35]

Then, if they don't feel like they shot it well enough, they will pay another two or three bucks and shoot it again!

Here are my two trains of thought:

1. Who cares if you are a Master class shooter if you are getting your a$$ handed to you by a bunch of B class shooters?

+1,000!!!

[boo radley]

I see the classifiers and the matches as two different creatures...[snip]

Yes improvement made shooting classifiers show growth, but does not directly mirror how well a shooter will do in actual matches. With classifiers being posted for everyone to see, it is easier to prepare for them. Matches are a different animal because of the limited time to prepare to shoot them. You get one shot at stages in a match, as opposed to the multiple chances you can have to practice classifiers.

I would challenge you to prove your assertion. There are outliers, but if you look at any major match, the distribution is clear and statistically reflects classification.

North's comments are pretty spot-on, IMO.

[Joe4d]

Then, if they don't feel like they shot it well enough, they will pay another two or three bucks and shoot it again!

Here are my two trains of thought:

1. Who cares if you are a Master class shooter if you are getting your a$$ handed to you by a bunch of B class shooters?

+1,000!!!

The guy that doesnt care about match results but just likes to track his own improvement cares....

I will never dominate USPSA in anything higher than C class, I am a fast and very accurate shooter. Medical problems make me a very slow mover and I have very limited flexibility when it comes to low ports or getting up and down off the ground. Now that I am home and can practice I am hoping to make A class this year as it seems to me many of the classifiers are stand and shoots or have no more than a step of movement. So if I show up at one of your matches as an A class shooter and get beat by a bunch of B's or even some young fast moving C's. I really dont care. I also dont care if anyone else cares. I will still be proud of my A card if I ever get it.

[ong45]

I see the classifiers and the matches as two different creatures...[snip]

Yes improvement made shooting classifiers show growth, but does not directly mirror how well a shooter will do in actual matches. With classifiers being posted for everyone to see, it is easier to prepare for them. Matches are a different animal because of the limited time to prepare to shoot them. You get one shot at stages in a match, as opposed to the multiple chances you can have to practice classifiers.

I would challenge you to prove your assertion. There are outliers, but if you look at any major match, the distribution is clear and statistically reflects classification.

North's comments are pretty spot-on, IMO.

+1... You see anomalies, but the system more or less works as it's supposed to. Now at the GM level? that's a whole new can o worms.

For all you Douglas Adams fans, the hitchhikers guide describes earth the same way i think of the classifier system.. " mostly harmless"

[Ron Ankeny]

I would challenge you to prove your assertion. There are outliers, but if you look at any major match, the distribution is clear and statistically reflects classification.

I have also learned that looking at posted scores by anything other than overall placement is nuts. I can't tell a darn thing looking at an "outlier" on the finish board, other than they finished outside of the rest of their pack, and frankly...who cares?

[Coach]

I for one feel moving up is a great acomplishment. I personally would rather be last place A class than first place B.

In this neck of the woods last A is usually below first B.

I personally don't worry about the classification too much one way of the other. But a lot of shooters should do. Once they make a certain classification they start referring to their previous class with a little disdain.

Overall the classification may be somewhat accurate, but I know a few shooters with a classification far above they have ever shot in a major match where I have seen the results. I don't mind moving up in classification and I just made B Limited in the fall, barely. But what I care more about is being competitive in the matches with those people of a similar or slightly higher classifications.

I can see how match skills and classification can be two slightly different animals. Shooting a match requires holding things together over many stages. Shooting a classifier is not that big of a deal. Let it rip. You can be a hero or a zero, and the zero is not going to hurt your classification.

[AlamoShooter]

I would like to get classed in Limited, But not below A class. so guess that is called -Chasing a rating-. I would like to shoot a match with my limited gun but I do not want to beet-up on the other guys.

I am not a master class Limited shooter, but I am not an A class ether.

I have been to enough events that class placement is not that important to me, Its nice but not important.

I am not a GM and I don't know that I ever will be, but on a good day I can get a view from the mountain top. = I just don't think that view should be off of someones back.

[markm]

There is a lot to be said for the system we have now. On a good day I can pull the trigger with a lot of em, but that is not a true measure of the skill that we have on demand, and it is not reflective of what most match organizers put on. "We" all want to shoot the field courses, 30+ rounds of Run and Gun fun, hair on fire, gun powder filling the air!!!! This is where a group of the higher classified shooters pull away. If there were more classifiers that represented what we actually shoot in most matches, then I'd say, yea, the classifiers are a good measure of what you can shoot against the big dogs. But that would be a mess to set up to specs and be a level playing field. SO we are left with the present system. It shows off your draws, transitions, reloads. It is the greatest test of your fundamental skills against the HHF. Now does this distribution of scores fall in line at the big matches, yea pretty much, but I think that you'll find the curve is lower by probably 5-7% because the top guys can only get a 100% HHF on classifiers, and most can shoot higher than the 100%. At the GM level there is a "Super Squad" that shoots at an entirely different level.

[Blueridge]

Just in case I have been misunderstood, I would like to add this....

I see classifiers as a good thing, mainly because it groups shooters with others who are on the same level as far as classifiers go. Part of the appeal of the classifications is that shooters do not have to worry about going heads up with the best shooters at matches. They can focus on being the best in their classification. I would venture to say that fewer people would participate in the sport if there were not the classifications grouping shooters.

What I have realized perplexed me is that I don't see many people saying that they would like to improve how they did at say the Area 6 Championships, but focusing on what rating they are. Improving the skills that are requisite to good shooting competition is what I think we all strive for, but we gauge our improvement in different ways. Being realistic I don't see myself exceeding C class in revolver, if I get there even. My usual goal is to find out how many revolver shooters are at a match, and endeavour to finish as high on that list as possible. I don't worry about what the others are rated, but concern myself with doing my best on the stages.

I am not suggesting that the classifier system be changed. I am trying to find out (as I have gained insight from the replies so far) how people look at the classifier system, as it compares to actual match shooting. There is a difference in my opinion, but I want to know other's views.

Edited February 19, 2008 by Blueridge