jackboyd Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 If I am ever appointed Czar of Multi Gun Rules, my first edict will be to unite every Multi Gun match in the universe to follow one set of rules. Who's with me? Join the movement. UNITED MULTI GUN RULES NOW! A non-profit organization benefiting me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.Hayden Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 Can I vote for Czar? If so.. you got my vote! Scoring.. I don't mind the differences... Equipment.. make them Universal... Why at SMM3G Tactical uses Production style, vs USPSA vs IronMan vs.. ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 I think you may be in the wrong topic....................and beating a buried horse. Trapr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 USPSA rules are what I would go with. Many folks don't like them, but I think they at least cover the bases well. I use them at our club for MG whenever I call the shots (pun intended). Can't even count all the different IMG flavors out there in regular use, which one ya' gonna' pick? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 USPSA rules are what I would go with. Many folks don't like them, but I think they at least cover the bases well. I use them at our club for MG whenever I call the shots (pun intended).Can't even count all the different IMG flavors out there in regular use, which one ya' gonna' pick? USPSA rules.... Not. Controversy already.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 Controversy already.... Ayup and I felt like being the one to open Pandora's box and I felt that was the best pry bar to use Seriously, USPSA rules may not be everyone's cup of tea, but they feature compatibility with most club pistol matches and they are documented to a degree that nothing else approaches. The scoring software is already on most club computer systems and there is a fully funded organization driving it. Lotsa' pro's from a tactical and logistical sense here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve J Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 (edited) According to an article on page 3 of the February issue of NRA's Shooting Sports USA, the NRA is looking perhaps to become the umbrella organization for (I suppose non-USPSA) multi-gun matches. I quote "The time might be right for NRA to expand into these programs. I [Director, NRA Competitive Shooting Divison] will be working with many groups that now host unsanctioned multi-gun matches to see how NRA might become actively involved with the sport. I have tagged the new program American Multi-Gun Competition and will keep you informed on our progress." Good luck with that. Talk about Pandora's box and controversy... Edited February 15, 2008 by Steve J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 Controversy already.... Ayup and I felt like being the one to open Pandora's box and I felt that was the best pry bar to use Seriously, USPSA rules may not be everyone's cup of tea, but they feature compatibility with most club pistol matches and they are documented to a degree that nothing else approaches. The scoring software is already on most club computer systems and there is a fully funded organization driving it. Lotsa' pro's from a tactical and logistical sense here _)@#*#(#&&$$%*&(@(*)#)( IS MY ANSWER. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LChico Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 Controversy already.... Ayup and I felt like being the one to open Pandora's box and I felt that was the best pry bar to use Seriously, USPSA rules may not be everyone's cup of tea, but they feature compatibility with most club pistol matches and they are documented to a degree that nothing else approaches. The scoring software is already on most club computer systems and there is a fully funded organization driving it. Lotsa' pro's from a tactical and logistical sense here "The scoring software is already on most club computer systems." Sorry George, but I really don't see this. How is multigun scoring in most club computer systems? Are you talking about EZ Win Score? Great program for 3 gun Tournaments but not so great for Multi-gun matches. I have copied part of a discussion Bill Noyes & I had on the subject last summer on the USPSA Forums. ---------------------------------- ... I think our (EzWinScore) scoring program is great for single gun matches and tournament style matches. I think it is too cumbersome for multi-gun matches, especially those with stages that require more than one weapon. I like the time plus scoring, with hit factored stage results, for multi-gun matches. ---Linda Chico (L-2035) Hi Linda. It's not that ezwinscore is too cumbersome; the issue is that it doesn't support multigun at all, and we as stats officers have to bludgeon it into submission and jab it in the side with a fork with all sorts of error-prone manual procedures to make it work. I'm hoping that ezws will be extended to give full programmatic support for multigun matches, at which point you would probably see more multigun matches spring up. But the multigun rules, like single stack, are in a provisional status and it might not be wise to invest a lot of time writing a big enhancement if the rules on which the code is written may possibly be dramatically changed down the road. --- Bill Noyes ---------------------------------- Linda Chico (L-2035) Columbia SC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentlemanJim Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 I love 3 gun enough that I will play with whatever rules are required. It would go far to unite several groups ...if we had common rules. USPSA rules would not be my first choice. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warpspeed Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 If I am ever appointed Czar of Multi Gun Rules, my first edict will be to unite every Multi Gun match in the universe to follow one set of rules. Who's with me? Join the movement. UNITED MULTI GUN RULES NOW! A non-profit organization benefiting me. I'm with you Jack! Can I be Vice Czar ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 Time Plus Scoring as currently practiced has inherent flaws IMO. Hit Factor based scoring as practiced by USPSA works much better to reward actual ability over a total match. USPSA Tournament Matches are not the best alternative and exclude Multigun Stages, but the San Angelo alternative really does work if you want it to. Myself and a few other's do think it can work until something better comes along and even though I don't think it's an end-all, I do believe it's the closest to equitable of any of the scoring alternatives presently available. And, yes, if EZ-Winscore 2.xx or later is on your clubs computer you can run USPSA Multigun by the book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SinistralRifleman Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 (edited) I like the idea of Federalism...the US Government has a structure that all the states have to follow, but the states can have their own laws based on the local values/beliefs/opinions of their residents. There isn't one cookie cutter set of laws that would work with the concerns of all areas of the country appropriately. ...I see action shooting the same way. States have varying guns laws for one. Range Facilities and Equipment available can vary quite a bit. Experience levels/backgrounds of competitors are also all over the chart. The basic mission statement of gun clubs often differs. So no, I don't think one set of rules can fit every competition. Maybe one universal set of Safety rules, beyond that it gets harder. Edited February 15, 2008 by SinistralRifleman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Religious Shooter Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 Everybody shoots major. If you score everybody major it becomes just like a regular USPSA pistol match. And how many of those are shot every weekend? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-Ho Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 Let's see, a lot of us shoot 3 gun because we like the variety it offers. So why put these limits on ourselves? If you don't like the rule set a certain match uses, DON"T GO SHOOT IT! And don't tell me I can only shoot one set of rules! If you want to shoot more USPSA rule matches, go shoot them. If there aren't enough for you, start one. Next thing you know someone in a far away east coast city will want to tell me what I have to do with my money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johann the Horrible Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 I live out of your country(on a planet you cannot drive to i.e.Africa) but similar rules will always benefit all. Now you drive all the way to Timbuktu a city in Africa and when you get there you get DQed on the first stage because of some local and obscure rule you did not know about. It is a long drive home in any case, after any DQ but the drive is longer after an unearned DQ. One set of rules- no excuse about not knowing about the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cksh8me Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 (edited) Jack we've talked about this and you've got my vote. A standard scoreing system. I don't like USPSA scoring it sucks for 3 gun and I have passed on matches that use it. I'm sure others like it and good on them. I've watched too many shooters with a calculator trying to figure out the stage (Ghay) man up and shoot it. Limited and Scoped Tactical limit rifle to 30 round mags. Make LRR targets count more. Sticking your rifle through a port and sending rounds range so you only get the miss and try to make up for it in speed. ahhhhhhhhhh BooShi. I don't care for the stage percentages either. You're there for the whole match not just a stage. Lowest overall score wins. If you have a meltdown on a stage it sucks to be you. You better figure out a way to pick it up on the other stages. Standardize the equipment rules for Heavy metal. The way it is now is a cluster F#$%. If you gear up for one match there's a good chance that you can't use or won't have the right/competitive equipment for other matches. You might get more participation. 308 20 round mag max with or without optic 12 gauge pump 9 round max in gun 45 8 +1 max. Or that's what I'd like to see. Jack you've still got my vote and my opinions. Good luck on your quest and it can only help the sport. Edited February 15, 2008 by cksh8me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRUBL Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 I'm only gonna say this once and spare everyone the pain of an arguement that no one can win. Please close this topic!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve J Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 Time Plus Scoring as currently practiced has inherent flaws IMO. Hit Factor based scoring as practiced by USPSA works much better to reward actual ability over a total match. IMHO hit factor based Comstock scoring is quite a flawed system. It allows people to win who miss, or worse yet, intentionally not shoot at targets simply because they can do so fastest. That's rewarding something else other than ability. No scoring system will ever be perfect, but at least "Time Plus" systems support the accuracy leg of DVC by more severely penalizing bad hits, as long as the penalties are not reduced to sub-second insignificant penalties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 Join the movement.UNITED MULTI GUN RULES NOW! A non-profit organization benefiting me. It's about time. Current USPSA rules? Nope. Why do you think we have so many "outlaw" matches? NRA's Competition Dept? Hell NO! They are the LAST group I want involved in any of "our" shooting sports. Look what a pathetic farce the once-a-year Bianchi has become (smaller each year & ridiculous unstable rules). Not to mention their piss-poor attitude and their ban on us "simple civilians" shooting at any "torso shaped" targets (look at the NRA's PC "D1" target - I'd rather use torsos, - WITH heads, thanks). Not to mention banning civilians from PPC. NRA takeover of 3gun? Here is a better idea: whay doesn't our USPSA leadership BUY the NRA like we did with Steel Challenge. THAT would be the only way I'd approve of NRA involvement in 3gun. We understand firearms competition. They do not. As for "the" answer to all the various rules, please keep the proposals coming - I am not seeing a workable one yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scirocco38s Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 Controversy already.... Ayup and I felt like being the one to open Pandora's box and I felt that was the best pry bar to use Seriously, USPSA rules may not be everyone's cup of tea, but they feature compatibility with most club pistol matches and they are documented to a degree that nothing else approaches. The scoring software is already on most club computer systems and there is a fully funded organization driving it. Lotsa' pro's from a tactical and logistical sense here "The scoring software is already on most club computer systems." Sorry George, but I really don't see this. How is multigun scoring in most club computer systems? Are you talking about EZ Win Score? Great program for 3 gun Tournaments but not so great for Multi-gun matches. I have copied part of a discussion Bill Noyes & I had on the subject last summer on the USPSA Forums. ---------------------------------- ... I think our (EzWinScore) scoring program is great for single gun matches and tournament style matches. I think it is too cumbersome for multi-gun matches, especially those with stages that require more than one weapon. I like the time plus scoring, with hit factored stage results, for multi-gun matches. ---Linda Chico (L-2035) Hi Linda. It's not that ezwinscore is too cumbersome; the issue is that it doesn't support multigun at all, and we as stats officers have to bludgeon it into submission and jab it in the side with a fork with all sorts of error-prone manual procedures to make it work. I'm hoping that ezws will be extended to give full programmatic support for multigun matches, at which point you would probably see more multigun matches spring up. But the multigun rules, like single stack, are in a provisional status and it might not be wise to invest a lot of time writing a big enhancement if the rules on which the code is written may possibly be dramatically changed down the road. --- Bill Noyes ---------------------------------- Linda Chico (L-2035) Columbia SC Linda, I dont like the scoringof some of the 3 gun matches where every stage has the same value. I dont believe that a 25 round pistol shotgun stage should have the same value as a 35 round pistol/rifle stage where the targets are out to 300/400 yards. I agree with time plus scoring as it does simplify the process greatly, but I dont agree with weighting the stages evenly(every stage worth 100points for example) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wgnoyes Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 (edited) <problem fixed> Edited February 17, 2008 by wgnoyes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.Hayden Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 Just wondering.. Would most people like uniform equipment rules like: holster, pouch locations, Heavy Metal = 40 or 45 and above.. etc.. Leaving scoring out of it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-Ho Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 Just wondering.. Would most people like uniform equipment rules like: holster, pouch locations, Heavy Metal = 40 or 45 and above.. etc.. Leaving scoring out of it? NO! Here are the uniform rules: 1. Bring at least 3 guns. At least 1 shotgun, rifle, and pistol. 2. Don't shoot anyone at the match 3. Read the rules before you go. If you bitch about the rules at the match, be prepared to get kicked in the balls. 4. Quit trying to run my matches for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.Hayden Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 lol.. like I was said.. just wondering... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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