An AR alternative?

[sideshowbob]

I remember someone saying the reason why everyone shoots ARs in 3 gun and in IPSC, is because of the 94 AW ban and the AR was the only reasonably priced alternative. Assuming that were true, if there was no AW ban and all semi-automatic rifles were of similar price, what would we be shooting instead.

Personally, I think the AR would still come out as everyone's favorite for this sport. The main reason is ergonomics and light weight. Although the Sig and H&K offer good rifles, they seem too heavy, and the mag release is a little awkward.

What do you guys think?

Edited January 9, 2008 by sideshowbob

[el pres]

I like the Robinson XCR, maybe 6.8. But its kinda just based on an piston driven

AR.

I would still shoot an AR over anything else..

[Carlos]

Personally, I think the AR would still come out as everyone's favorite for this sport. The main reason is ergonomics and light weight. Although the Sig and H&K offer good rifles, they seem too heavy, and the mag release is a little awkward.

What do you guys think?

Good point. Most "assault rifle" owners are ignorant as to weight of their guns; they spend most of their time sitting at a bench at the range. If they carry the gun, then its from the trunk to the "bench."

In 3gun, a 223 approaching 10 lbs like the Sig 551 becomes unwieldy and harder to move from target to target. There are lighter guns like the Arsenal 5.56mm AKs, but their bolt carriers are much heavier and I find they upset the sights more than the AR (plus sights are more difficult to mount than on an AR). Mini 14s are an option for CA, but the accuracy is lacking, mag changes take longer and mounting an optic is more challenging.

Besides, there are more accesories for the AR than any other platform in the US. And the AR's accuracy is second to none, along with having the mag release in a convenient, fast location.

Edited January 9, 2008 by Carlos

[GentlemanJim]

Given ANY choice...I still would shoot the AR....preferably MY variation of it.

Jim

[J-Ho]

I think Jim's answer is key. Personal variation. There are nearly infinite configurations.

[Jaxshooter]

There is a company that does accuracy work on the Mini 14, I can't remember the name. I shot one of thier guns that was very accurate but the cost would be more than a good AR-15. I can't think of anything that can compete with the Ar when you look at cost, weight, accuracy and the availability of aftermarket parts. You can use the same gun to shoot any of the USPSA Divisions by simply changing sights/optics.

[Religious Shooter]

I'd shoot an HK 416 kitted for 3 gun.

[uscbigdawg]

Had a lot of fun "plinking" with some of our PSD guys kitted out with HK 416's. First, they're not bad. But you only feel the "benefits" of a piston system under RAPID fire (and I don't mean on a hoser stage).

AR's just work. You keep them clean and feed it good ammo from mags and it'll run forever. I've carried a M-4 for my 2nd year straight and it goes bang every time I pull the trigger. Haven't shot the Robinson or most of the other AR-Alternatives, but POF's aren't bad, HK's again are pretty sweet, but in the end, they're addressing issues that aren't REAL problems to me.

Keeping it simple and keeping it taken care of seems to fix every problem.

Rich

[Chills1994]

I kinda wished Robinson Arms had stayed on track with their M 96. I think it is a cool looking gun. It takes AR mags too:

IIRC, it is piston driven gun, so at least it doesn't poop where it eats.

Robinson Arms had some probelms with them at first. They liked to shoot their barrels downrange and had to be sent back to the factory in Utah. R.A. had promised all sorts of gadgets and gee-gaws that were supposedly to materialize later on, but they never did.

As far as an AR alternative, I think that's just a result of how the rules are set up. There is a minimum caliber and a minor Power Factor floor that just so happens to easily include the .223 Remington cartridge.

Can you think of a better more tested 40 something year old platform for the .223 than the AR?

Now, if the rules were re-written and the minor PF got moved up, then, heck, who knows, everyone could be shooting AK's then.

Or maybe they would just swap in 6.5 Grendel or 6.8 SPC uppers then?

[TRUBL]

Ok.....I'll say it

There is no good alternative to the AR15 in 3 gun competion that will be as cost effective, as good or parts availible.

Am I gonna get flamed now??

Tim

[Religious Shooter]

Initial post asks us "if there was no AW ban and all semi-automatic rifles were of similar price, what would we be shooting instead."

I agree that the AR platform is the best bang for the buck rifle out there for 3 gun. But what if?

[Sc0]

I agree; the AR platform is hard to beat due to parts availability, cost, and accuracy. I looked at the SIG and it looked good except for the price and nobody at the gun show were selling parts for it. The Robinson as pictured above looks interesting and makes me think of a Baby-FAL or Daewoo K2 in a certain way. The newly developed FN SCAR looks interesting as well but who knows how it would hold up due to a limited "customer base". Mini-14 would be kinda neat but expensive mags and a unguided chunk of steel called a guide rod doesn't do much for accuracy. The MAK-90 is good but not as accurate as the AR, but even so the AR is more pleasant to shoot and doesn't turn into a portable heater.

[GentlemanJim]

Ok.....GE mini gun in 223...with maglev base and retro thrusters for fast transitions throw in a radar targeting system and laser ranging

couple this to a semi trailer load of ammo

But short of that....back to the AR

JMHO...Jim

[kurtm]

The Robinson arms 96 reminds me of a Stoner 63....without the full auto parts, and the proclivity of " hopping the sear" and going off all on it,s own!

Maybe if Benelli made a nice .223 rifle with BIG mags I've seen Remingtons attemp!

( Back atcha Jim! )

[Blockhead]

I'm curious how Magpul's Masada would run in the game. Their website says it mounts a std. AR barrel, takes AR mags and will run an AR trigger. They also say they'll get to market for $1,000 to 1,200. I'm looking forward to checking their booth at this year's SHOT show and see where they are with it.

All the same, my JP-15 has never given me any trouble and shoots great. I guess there's always the attraction of something "new".

[priceg]

I will stick with the stoner platform. I think cost, weight and ease of mag changes will keep it the most used platform.

[shooting for M]

IMO price and AW ban aside, I think for 3-gun the ergonomics of the AR platform are the deciding factor. I think that accuracy is also a big one, I'm sure there are people that can get a mini-14 or an AK just as accurate for the price of a decent AR, but an AR is easier to get accurate the availability of parts, competition, tactical and tacticool is also astounding in comparison to ather platforms.

Again, the ergonomics, i.e. saftety and mag release, and the availability of different parts make the AR platform the winner over price, especially in a sport where people are spending 2-5K on a pistol and 1000 or more on a shotgun, the difference of a couple hundred for a different rifle is negligible.

Just my $.02

Jason

[Chills1994]

(thread drift on)

Way to go DUDE!

Now, I really feel like a cheap a$$.

2 to 3 K on a pistola... okay, those most be the open and limited guns. I'm not all that serious about 3 gun enough to splurge 2 thou on up for a Limited gun. My 600 dollar Beretta runs just fine for a production gun. I'll probably stick with that for a while. I suppose I could load up some .40 major rounds for it and call it Limited (major) with lots and lots of mag changes.

1K for a shottie. I think I blew either 650 or 750 on a NIB Remmie 1100 Tactical. Fellow shooters were telling me I got gouged on the price, but it was a last minute purchase. The other well used 1100 Birdgun I bought for 200 dollars. I still have to tacticool it up, but I think I'll come out money ahead still. That'll be my back up gun. It runs. It just doesn't look cool yet.

The AR, well, I assembled that. It's a frankenstein gun but it runs. I guess that was in the 1k to 1.2K neighborhood. I still have to go over my receipts on that one.

(drift off)

Even if there wasn't an AWB, I'd still think the AR platform would still be the shizzle for 3 gun. In 1994 at the start of the AWB it still had about a 30 year head start of inertia vs. anything else.

Plain and simple, anything the military buys gun-wise is gonna sell like hotcakes to us civillians. Look at the 1911. That pistola has dang near been around for 100 years. In USPSA competitions, is there anything else close to it in numbers in use (the 2011 models, STI and SVI)?

[Chills1994]

If you're going to SHOT show keep an eye out for this .223 semi-automatic rifle made by Beretta (not that it will ever get imported to the States and sold to civillians, as it's pictured):

IIRC, it takes AR mags, too.

I think Beretta is going to try to market it to LE, though.

[kurtm]

Why is Jamie Lee Curtis shooting for Beretta?? (well that,s who she looks like.) YUMMMMY!!

[SV_shooter]

"40 watt plasma rifle with 30 yard range"

Love AR's, but I gotta wonder how an HK G3 clone would work in the game. I like the challenge of finding or building parts for something to make it competitive w the norm or "standard". call me crazy.

[SinistralRifleman]

I remember someone saying the reason why everyone shoots ARs in 3 gun and in IPSC, is because of the 94 AW ban and the AR was the only reasonably priced alternative. Assuming that were true, if there was no AW ban and all semi-automatic rifles were of similar price, what would we be shooting instead.

1) There are no foreign guns that are as ergonomic, accurate, and versatile as the AR15 platform. Foreign special forces units still use M4s/M16s when their countries main service rifle is something

The importation ban protecting domestic manufacturers that was enacted as part of the gun control act of 1968 is what keeps foreign rifles out. They can however set up factories here, and produce them for the American public (which buys more guns every year than any foreign military). The fact remains that the American firearms industry benefits from more direct end user intelligent feedback than European firearms companies, because Americans can own and shoot guns. We have people here who are shooters that design things, as opposed to engineers that may never even have fired a rifle before.

2) *Alternate History Harry Turtledove Mode on*

The Assault Weapons Ban is never enacted.

There is no run on buying semi-automatic military style rifles

Military style rifles remain off the radar for most of the gun owning public. Nothing makes people want something more than being told they can't have it...this doesn't happen.

More AR15s are not sold from 1994-2004 than the previous 30 years combined.

AR15.com either doesn't happen, or remains a relatively small site of dedicated hobbyists.

Fewer rifles sales result in fewer small companies getting involved in the business. Fewer new products are developed as a result. Some innovation continues to come from action shooting, but the end result is more specialized and less commonly used. The big AR companies keep putting out standard AR configurations in relatively the same number with similar gradual growth. The GWOT would still drive innovation, but high end accessories would be harder to come by as KAC and the other big players would be the only ones making them.

...so the people doing 3 Gun would be using Free Floated accurrized AR15s, that would likely be more expensive or harder to get due to market factors, not laws.

[Chills1994]

There's also the Century Arms International Galil knockoff that they call the Golani. It looks kinda like an AK but it's chambered in .223.

(thread drift mode way on)

Sinistral Rifleman's post kinda makes me think we all could be shooting full auto and suppressed guns of any barrel length without a tax stamp had it NOT been for Prohibition.

<grumble... grumble>

government meddling

grumble grumble

unintended consequences

grumble grumble

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

<shuffles off>

(drift off)

[tenchu74]

I had been using a FN FAL in the heavy metal division but recently got a Robinson Armament XCR. So I will see how it does this year.

[Carlos]

(not that it will ever get imported to the States and sold to civillians, as it's pictured):

Beretta has a plant to make our military's M9 handguns in Maryland. So, they already have a plant in the US and could "make" the gun here in the US. Sig makes our military's M11 handguns here in the US too (its required by law). Now they make Sig model 556 rifles here in the US.

Unless something drastic happens in the S.Ct or in November, maybe Beretta will give us another player in the 3gun rifle market?

I am all for more competition. If someone comes up with a rifle that is better than the AR, we win.

Anyone else think that Beretta rifle is "fugly" despite the hottie holding it (with her finger on the trigger no less).

Edited January 15, 2008 by Carlos