Allowing 22s in USPSA

[Jim Norman]

What we will do, is allow a kid to shoot with a .22. No score, no preasure. If USPSA or IPSC recognizes .22 or Airsoft as a divison, we will be many steps down the slippery slope to why do you need a "Real Gun" for your sport.

My opinion is let the clubs do as they see fit under the radar.

Jim

[Carlos]

Not to get too off-topic, but one idea a friend came up with to get the Juniors who can't yet safely handle a 9mm involved was: a Parent/child only USPSA shoot. This would be a seperate event on a separate day with DIFFERENT stages. Kids only.

Here was the idea:

-each young child would stay with his/her parent the entire time.

-the guns used would be (the dreaded) airsoft; these guns send plastic bbs clear through a USPSA target. Eye protection required.

-unlike a .22, there is NO danger of anyone dying. Even the youngest children can participate with dad or mom watching over them.

- all USPSA rules would be followed with following exceptions: no steel of course, and (this is controversial, I realize) no match DQ. If the child makes a DQ-able offense, they sit out the stage and its explained to them why, but they are not subject to the same match DQ penalty as an adult (because they are not adults - they are just children. Young children).

The guns are cheap enough that one or two club members can likely come up with enough gear for a half dozen or more kids, plus the whole day's "ammo" would cost less than a 50 rounds of centerfire.

I am against "adult" airsoft USPSA competition outside of Japan & England. But I am all for having it at clubs for anyone under 10 to 12 years old.

Just a thought & maybe a compromise in place of .22.

Edited January 3, 2008 by Carlos

[Flexmoney]

We've had an Ohio club or two that ran some .22 stuff. One was as a side match to the monthly USPSA match.

It died off a few years back (though there is talk of it coming back this year).

Having experienced that, and having run a Steel Challenge match for the past number of years, I can tell you this...

.22's don't run !

I remember how sucky it was waiting around to shoot a "real DVC" gun while guys tried to run and gun with their .22's

- Can they be made to run? Yes. But, the cheap gun/cheap ammo crowd (newbies) don't get it right.

- The hard-core shooters...they get it figured out. But, these guys will shoot anything...and you already have them as customers.

I'm not a fan of .22 for USPSA. Fine for a side match, but not for score and not if it takes away from the DVC crowd.

I am a BIG fan of .22 for Steel Challenge. The malfunctions there aren't a big deal. (No stage resetting or dead time spent while the clock is running). I promoted them hot and heavy at the local SC match. We allowed rehoots for FREE with the .22's. And, I allowed an alibi per stage for .22's (For those unfamiliar, an "alibi" allows the shooter to reshoot their run for an equipment malfunction.)

[shred]

.22 action shooting is fun, but it isn't IPSC (or USPSA). It can't be all things to all people.

[FranDoc]

.22's don't run !

.22 conversions can be finicky with their ammo. My Kimber will shoot the CCI @ $6/100 all day. It won't feed the bulk pack Wally World stuff.

I'm no scholar of the rules, but is their anything currently prohibiting a club from allowing anyone (esp juniors or someone with a physical limitation) to shoot .22's with the rest of the squad, having their scores posted locally, but not for USPSA classification?

I don't believe that we've ever had anyone ask to do that but, with the escalating price of ammo, the question might come up.

The IDPA group at our range held a .22 match this past Halloween -- free to LE shooting in duty rig or to anyone shooting in costume, usual match fee for the rest of us. It was a good outing, holes in paper, 'ping' on static steel (painted between shooters). We had a few first timer shooters who probably would NOT have been there if they'd had to shoot anything other than a .22. They allowed .22 handguns and .22 carbines for that particular match.

I think this is worth discussing, trying on a local basis, and seeing what happens. Each of us THINK we know what the response will be. It'll be interesting to follow the groups who do try/permit this to see what their experience is, what obstacles they encounter, and how those are resolved.

[ofcrfs242]

Reading back through this thread a couple of things have come to mind. And like others I can see both sides.

1) I don't think that anyone who has posted here has said that they wanted a 22 division or class for USPSA. I don't think that would be realistic. While I would love to get the young ones in the game I would oppose an actual division for the 22 in USPSA.

2) Most everyone posting here to include several match directors have said bring the young ones and their 22's and lets shoot. And I believe that very few around the country would say no you can't allow your 13 year old daughter to shoot a 22 at our club. Do we really need more than that? It would be nice to have something across the board but is it really needed?

3) What were the thoughts of the "founding fathers" of USPSA as far as what it should be. That was already posted in this thread. One thing I would not want to do in any way is try to change what USPSA is or stands for.

Maybe it is enough that most clubs would allow the young ones to shoot. Pushing the issue might develop some undesireable results.

But a great discussion on both sides.

[Flexmoney]

I'm no scholar of the rules, but is their anything currently prohibiting a club from allowing anyone (esp juniors or someone with a physical limitation) to shoot .22's with the rest of the squad, having their scores posted locally, but not for USPSA classification?

The minimum caliber for all divisions is 9mm/38

If you want to do it, run two sets of scores. One for the real match and one for the side match.

The way to make this work...along with solving a few other issues...is to get an option in EZ-score that allows a shooter to compete for no score. They'd get to see where they rank in the stage results, but wouldn't get any points awards, nor show up in the finals results. (.22's, reshoots, new shooters, coach-thrus)

[uscbigdawg]

No 22 divisions. We've got too many as is and frankly, to administrate this, have formal rules (Open, Limited, juniors) is formality for the sake of formality = waste. I'm never opposed to introducing the sport to juniors or new shooters. Frankly, every club I have EVER shot at, I'm sure has no problem letting someone plink through with a 22. It doesn't work though in our game at all if only on the moving targets.

As stated, the Steel Challenge is a much better venue for someone with a 22. One stage requiring movement and 5 mags and you're good to go. Don't even need a holster.

K.I.S.S. needs to be read and read and read again.

Rich

[SA Friday]

Let me just throw this out there. Steel Challange is not an option everywhere that USPSA is. I wish it were. It's an ideal starting point as many have pointed out.

[John Heiter]

Yes, shooting a .22 is TOTALLY different than shooting full house loads, and that should not be forgotten. Of course, shooting a revolver is totally different than shooting an open gun and somehow we manage to cope.

We allow .22's at all of our level I matches and it seems to work out without a hitch. The kids show up with holsters for their .22's or they borrow one from someone, they knock down all the steel they can and take misses on the ones that we can't find hits on, and if there's an activator they can't activate then it's not too big a deal to give them misses but no FTE's on it. We don't have a lengthy set of rules set in stone, but I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard to put together. While I have no doubt that the group of guys I shoot with in central Mississippi represent the absolute best and the brightest of USPSA minds, I would imagine we could tutor other not so gifted clubs until they catch up.

I don't really think .22's should be recognized at Level II and higher matches, I don't think we need to worry about classifying .22 shooters, and I'd be happy to have a .22 division limited to ribbons only on a prize table if we need to do that to keep sandbaggers out of it, but I think it would be great if we could all tell new shooters/kids that there's a special division geared specifically to them where they can compete against people using similar equipment and on a similar skill level. It would be great if there was an easy way of denoting these people in Winscore results so I wouldn't have to try explaining to people who are brand new to the sport who they were actually competing against among all the "production" scores.

If we're worried about the "V" then lets up our power factor floors to the point that us real men are shooting loads comparable to basic factory ammo but let the kids play. Come on man, do it for the kids!

[Flexmoney]

Come on man, do it for the kids!

John, did you miss the "how many 5 year old can you beat up?" thread ?

[JThompson]

Come on man, do it for the kids!

John, did you miss the "how many 5 year old can you beat up?" thread ?

Tonight was a toss up... I figure I could take the one who forgot to go to the bathroom before getting to the line.

[jdavionic]

Wow, what an interesting debate. Being relatively new to USPSA/IPSC, I’m surprised at the issues being introduced.

For what it’s worth, I’ll offer the perspective from someone who has not been in this too long.

Pros:

• Offers an opportunity to introduce kids to the sport. In my case, I have a child that is interested but she is simply too small to safely handle a 9mm. Although I’ve seen and know of kids that are relatively small who can handle them, I suspect the comfort level would be higher with a .22LR.
  
• Increases participation in the sport. I have seen & heard of cases where local clubs have struggled to get enough participation. I don’t see where opening the door to additional people will have anything but a positive affect on enrollment and participation.
  
• From a political perspective, I think it is beneficial to encourage the youth to learn about firearms, safe handling of firearms, enjoying the benefits of owning and using firearms responsibly, and as they mature they can understand implications of the daily challenges that we face with folks who want to take them away. Perhaps this participation will help the next generation take charge in this constant battle over the second amendment.
  

Cons:

• For some folks (not me), it may prove to be frustrating with additional time required for scoring (tiny .22 holes can be a challenge), close scrutiny by the RO, etc.
  
• I guess one could argue the merits of citing a .22LR as fitting into the original plan for the sport. I haven’t researched the history of the sport enough to respond; but it appears to be a concern.
  
• Risk & Liability of having a younger, novice shooter in the sport. As a parent, I can say that I wouldn’t let my children even go to the range until I felt they were mature enough to handle the gun safely. I have taught them and constantly reinforced safe handling of firearms. However I recognize that you don’t have to go far to find examples of parents that are irresponsible. In response to this issue though, I have seen many adults that are irresponsible in their handling of firearms too. I think you run the risk with any new shooter.
  

With respect to the logistics of how this might work,

• I would expect that a parent must be present & an active member for their child to participate. I would not want this to turn into some twisted firearm daycare facility.
  
• I would expect that the organization would list acceptable firearms for use in this division. This should allow the organization to help ensure that the shooter is working their way up to higher caliber firearms.
  
• Scoring – I shoot minor and wouldn’t have any issues with the rimfire division being scored the same. These are kids and they are in a different division. I don’t see the issue their scores being comparable to other divisions. Personally, I’d love for my kid to be a better shooter than me.
  
• Production only. I think we’ve got a lot of options out there already. To help simplify scoring and encourage kids to learn on production firearms, I think production is the best solution. Heck, my Dad wouldn’t let me shoot with a scope at all. Let them wait to explore the other options until after they have a good foundation to work from.
  

[Charles Bond]

There are a ton of good ideas here on how to introduce a child to the sport of practical shooting. The introduction takes place at the club match and not at the Level 2 match or higher so the issue is really how a club desires to handle it. Airsoft, bb gun, whatever but it is for the club to handle not USPSA to mandate. I have never heard of a club who would not allow a shooter at a local match let his child run the first ten targets with a 22 as part of the squad. Note I am talking about a parent present with a child who wants to shoot and not a dropped off child. Plus, keep in mind you do not even have to paste a 22 hit.

For those of you who really think that USPSA needs a 22 division, might I remind you that due to the purchase of Steel Challenge by USPSA one presently exists

[tpcdvc]

There are a ton of good ideas here on how to introduce a child to the sport of practical shooting. The introduction takes place at the club match and not at the Level 2 match or higher so the issue is really how a club desires to handle it. Airsoft, bb gun, whatever but it is for the club to handle not USPSA to mandate. I have never heard of a club who would not allow a shooter at a local match let his child run the first ten targets with a 22 as part of the squad. Note I am talking about a parent present with a child who wants to shoot and not a dropped off child. Plus, keep in mind you do not even have to paste a 22 hit.

For those of you who really think that USPSA needs a 22 division, might I remind you that due to the purchase of Steel Challenge by USPSA one presently exists

+1. If it aint broke, don't fix it.

[kurtm]

CAREFULL!!!! The Olympic Decathalon USED to be shot using the "service weapons" of the country you were from. Then in order to "fair" to all ( not everyone is allowed to use military type firearms or military calibers in various countries) it was dropped to .22. No big deal.....EXCEPT....it erroded the sport and the other Olympic shooting sports. I.E. Running Bore and 300m rifle used to be shot with center fire rifles...GONE is the 300m and now Running Bore is shot w/ .22 shorts. There is a large push by the I.O.C. to drop all this to "air rifles" as not all countries can use "firearms" and soon there will be NO shooting sports in the Olympics.

Anytime you dilute a sport downward the consiquenses are that it will seek it,s lowest level eventually. Now I am all for it at the local level, heck even have a .22 day, but NEVER a sanctioned division. Doing that will be the death knell of USPSA as we know it....eventually! KURTM

[Carl Provan]

I host an indoor winter USPSA program in Michigan. We have had young shooters compete with airsofts and glock .22 conversions. I have not had any other shooter complain or have I had issues with US poppers not falling. Note on the US Poppers, when I made them I calibrated them with a .22, I am also using them indoors where the range surface is smooth, flat and I have no wind to deal with.

It is a good starting point for young shooters. Learning how to shoot this game is tough enough, so let them learn with a pistol with low recoil.

For popper activated targets have the RO activate it with a string or rope after the young shooter has hit the proper popper.

Remember this is a teaching tool. We need to encurage new shooter young and old.

Each club should allow young shooter to shoot as many stages and as much of the stage as possible. Adjust the rules to keep the shooter and the spectators safe. Allowing young shooters to learn and have fun with pay off later when they are older and return with a division reconized pistol.

[jdavionic]

For those of you who really think that USPSA needs a 22 division, might I remind you that due to the purchase of Steel Challenge by USPSA one presently exists

It may an ignorant question...but just how available are these Steel Challenge matches? For me, I suspect that the closest is an hour drive and that the frequency is not weekly.

[jdavionic]

CAREFULL!!!! The Olympic Decathalon USED to be shot using the "service weapons" of the country you were from. Then in order to "fair" to all ( not everyone is allowed to use military type firearms or military calibers in various countries) it was dropped to .22. No big deal.....EXCEPT....it erroded the sport and the other Olympic shooting sports. I.E. Running Bore and 300m rifle used to be shot with center fire rifles...GONE is the 300m and now Running Bore is shot w/ .22 shorts. There is a large push by the I.O.C. to drop all this to "air rifles" as not all countries can use "firearms" and soon there will be NO shooting sports in the Olympics.

Anytime you dilute a sport downward the consiquenses are that it will seek it,s lowest level eventually. Now I am all for it at the local level, heck even have a .22 day, but NEVER a sanctioned division. Doing that will be the death knell of USPSA as we know it....eventually! KURTM

I just don't see a youth program / division evolving into the sport's death sentence. The NRA offers various small bore competition and youth programs. I don't see the degradation there. Unfortunately they don't offer anything that is as dynamic as the challenges offered by the USPSA.

[Flexmoney]

For those of you who really think that USPSA needs a 22 division, might I remind you that due to the purchase of Steel Challenge by USPSA one presently exists

It may an ignorant question...but just how available are these Steel Challenge matches? For me, I suspect that the closest is an hour drive and that the frequency is not weekly.

You have weekly practical pistol matches? Less than an hour away? Where do you live??? Must be nice.

[oddjob]

Cub level introductory type thing would be fine with me (22, 32 acp, .380 acp). Seen it done a lot. No one has complained that I know of.

New Division??? Most of me is saying "nope".

[kurtm]

We already have a Jr. program, or so it states in Front Sight, and I fully support any Jr. shooting program, but the minute someone said "adults for a year" that was the killer for me, also we could start going the way of SASS..... Sub Jr. Production, Pocket Auto of not more than .32 A.C.P. NOPE!! Not For Me! Bring them to the range let them shoot as much as they want, but when it comes to shooting a real match they should be making minor! Heck all 3 of My 8 year olds can do all the drills just fine with a slimed Glock in 9mm, and they are just average American kids! KurtM

[Flexmoney]

+1 to Kurt's last post.

We had a junior that worked his way up the results...and he had to pull the trigger with his middle finger (only way he could reach).

Just the other night, in an indoor .22 bowling pin match, we had a junior girl take 9th overall, out of 30 or so shooters.

If you are shooting for score...you need to meet the same equipment requirements as everybody else.

I steer the kids to our Steel Challenge match. They can shoot .22's there...with red-dots...little/no movement...reactive targets...time plus scoring...no reloads...no holster (.22) or bat-belt.

[g.willikers]

Never mind the kiddies. How about .22s for us old guys with sore joints who can't do the .45s anymore. Can we come back or not?

[Lexor40cal]

For those of you who really think that USPSA needs a 22 division, might I remind you that due to the purchase of Steel Challenge by USPSA one presently exists

It may an ignorant question...but just how available are these Steel Challenge matches? For me, I suspect that the closest is an hour drive and that the frequency is not weekly.

I think I know the answer to all of these for you, as I believe I know 'jdavionic'

Griffin Gun Club runs Steel Challenge, well actually I just found out that yesterday that it is US Steel Shoot and no longer Steel Challenge, it look as if there has been/is to be a split there??

But they run a steel match first Saturday of every month, it's not a weekly match but monthly. It is about an hout from you, but it is a great starting block for juniors.

I think one of the problems here is that the discussion is getting were I originally saw it going, everyone wants to be the head chese that makes the decission. Does it need to be another division?, how about no, just let locall Level I matches let whom ever run using a .22 and score them along with all other competitors, but do not roll the scores up to USPSA, just publish them locally.

As for steel, just paint prior to run and visible hit scores, for activators etc. just take the activator hit, and give them the score for the swinger, they don't need to be shooting the difficult stuff yet any way?????

The whole idea here is to get more shooters out, regardless of age, size, ability. IF it slows down the match due to number of shooters, that is a good thing.