Steel Challenge & USPSA

[AlamoShooter]

Thump thunp thump thunp thump thump thunp thump thump thunp thump thunp thump thunp thump...

As always member input is welcome but let's keep it based on reality not bad assumptions

OK I looked out side I seem to be safe.

The thing an old girlfriend once said that stuck with me ....." I, Want to Believe You"

Are you sure?

NO ...No my name is Jamie and don't call me Sury 2004

[ffl]

Here are some other questions about the Steel Challange?

1. Will it (SC) always be in Piru, CA?

2. The letter I got from USPSA is that all assets of sc were purchased by USPSA. Does that include the range in Piru?

3. Will the sponsors of Steel Challange be handled like sponsors of USPSA?

4. If handled like USPSA sponsors. How many will they loose?

5. Did SC give out cash and prizes like the Bianchi Cup? Will that end now that the USPSA has purchased them?

6. With CA as a very anti-firearm state will the USPSA continue to host the SC at Piru now that the ownership is in WA and not in CA?

7. If the range is part of the assets purchased will the nationals now be in CA every year instead of moving about?

[warpspeed]

6. With CA as a very anti-firearm state will the USPSA continue to host the SC at Piru now that the ownership is in WA and not in CA?

Can we just stop all the Anti-CA political BS for one and for all.

So CA has a limit on magazine capcity @ 10 rds. There are 5 targets in SC. If you need more than 10+1 in the gun at the beep, perhaps you should practice.

[Flexmoney]

I think there is a BOD meeting at the start of 2008? I wouldn't expect to see any (official) plans of implementation until after that meeting. Get your thoughts and ideas to your Area Directors...now is the time to brainstorm.

As far as THE big match. I am pretty sure that we have now heard from a majority (6 of 9) of the BOD that they don't want to mess with anything about THE big match...nothing...whatsoever.

Logic tells us that USPSA isn't going to pull out of California...for any reason. There are vast amounts of shooters in California. California is USPSA's most popular state. http://www.uspsa.org/cgi-bin/db_class_summary.cgi It has double the activity of any state besides FL and TX. (And, if you are looking, NY and IL are very active states as well...fwiw.)

The concern would be getting bumped out by the political landscape...something to be mindful of, and not get blind-sided by.

[omnia1911]

Omni 1911.

Why can't we do both? What troubles you specifically?

Why can't we leave the money making, very popular, cult followed, SC match alone, as you suggest, and still develop a sub-set of the SC to be ran at club/State-Sectional/and Area matches.

Our membership is certainly talented enough to do both, IMO.

Gary

This post has been edited by Gary Stevens: Dec 17 2007, 05:58 AM

Excerpts from the SCSA rulebook:

There will be an annual Postal Match which will decide a World Postal Champion each year, with the Overall winner and the winner of each Category receiving an attractive SCSA Custom Plaque. Each club is to send a report to the SCSA after the Postal Match, listing the names, overall results, categories and membership number of each competitor. These will be tabulated with the winners being announced soon thereafter and plaques being mailed directly to the winners.

SCSA memberships are available in One Year, Three Year or Life Time increments. Special discounts are available for families, which include juniors, spouses or brother/sisters. There is also an International rate.

Matches are to be "Trophy Only", but raffles for prizes may be allowed in larger sanctioned matches. This eliminates the need to buy or solicit prizes. This also helps take some pressure off an over solicited industry and helps with our philosophy of promotion from the national level.

Each club pays an annual fee of $50.00 and there are no activity or attendance charges to deal with. Membership fees are our primary method of providing operating income. Our continued growth depends upon it.

All persons competing in SCSA tournaments must be a current member of the SCSA. It is the club's responsibility to monitor valid memberships. Each set of score sheets should have a place to enter the contestant's name, category and membership number. A club may allow a new shooter to compete one time without joining to help familiarize them with our sport.

Matches must use the SCSA format, rules and approved courses of fire.

To hold a State, Regional or National SCSA match, the hosting club MUST apply for SCSA approval and sanction. There will be a sanction fee of $5.00 per shooter with a $100.00 minimum fee.

All tournaments are to award trophies or plaques only. The STEEL CHALLENGE PISTOL TOURNAMENT - WORLD SPEED SHOOTING CHAMPIONSHIPS will remain as the only cash and merchandise SCSA tournament. Any exception to this rule must receive SCSA approval.

No club or member shall attempt to compete with, change, or discredit in any way, the SCSA and/or Steel Challenge Pistol Tournament.

The BOD said that they will not USPSA-ize the Steel Challenge. Does that extend to the lower level matches?

Will there still be a club and individual SCSA membership, or will it be converted to the USPSA membership system?

A USPSA membership is formatted differently than a SCSA membership. How will that be handled?

Will activity fees now be charged for Steel matches?

Will there still be a “Speed” publication, or will “Front Sight” incorporate that information?

Will there be 2 different rule books published, or will Steel match rules be rolled into the USPSA rulebook?

With more Steel Challenge matches being run (club, section, Area), I’m concernd with overburdoning those that support and sponsor The STEEL CHALLENGE PISTOL TOURNAMENT - WORLD SPEED SHOOTING CHAMPIONSHIPS and possibly having a negative effect on the success of that premier match going forward.

Good work Bruce Gary. Hang in there.

I would only suggest that the BOD take a couple of years to concentrate on becoming familiar with running the Championship Match before trying to officially incorporate Steel Challenge matches into USPSA at a lower level.

[omnia1911]

My suggestions:

All SCSA memberships (club, individual) will be converted to USPSA memberships, entitling the membership holder to shoot any and all USPSA matches (multi gun, pistol, steel).

There will be no classification system for Steel Challenge matches. Matches will be heads up, divided by division (gun type).

Level I (club) Steel Challenge matches will not be charged activity fees. Activity fees may be charged at Level II and III matches

Anyone who is not a USPSA member, and wants to shoot a Steel Challenge match, may shoot his/her first match for free (free as in no membership fee), provided they pass a safety check by a certified USPSA RO. An individual must be a USPSA member to shoot a Steel Challenge match thereafter.

Front Sight will become the publication of all USPSA disciplines.

One rulebook will be published covering the guidelines for each of the USPSA disciplines.

All Steel Challenge matches will be trophy only matches, except for the STEEL CHALLENGE PISTOL TOURNAMENT - WORLD SPEED SHOOTING CHAMPIONSHIPS.

[open17]

My suggestions:

Anyone who is not a USPSA member, and wants to shoot a Steel Challenge match, may shoot his/her first match for free (free as in no membership fee), provided they pass a safety check by a certified USPSA RO. An individual must be a USPSA member to shoot a Steel Challenge match thereafter.

.

Since you don't have to be a USPSA member to shoot level I USPSA matches, seem a little odd to

require USPSA membership to shoot Level I Steel Challenge matches.

Bill

[Ron Ankeny]

I wonder if USPSA is going to put any teeth into the "boot leg" Steel Challenge matches being held around the country? For instance, I want to hold a State Steel Challenge Match in Shoshoni, WY in the spring. Small club, small range, limited bays. How many courses of fire will be needed to hold the match?? All of them? With so few shooters, what are the fees? Will we be be paying the $5.00 per head along with some kind of SC affiliation beyond the five bucks or hundred dollar minimum?

There is a club to the South of us that primarily shoots NRA Action Pistol, but they bought a complete set of SC targets and they plan on holding some matches...maybe even a state match. What will they be required to do and what happens if they just shoot a SC State Match on their own without any kind of affiliation? Yeah, I know...that's all being worked out and all we need to do is to cool our jets and give Sedro a chance. Still, the concerns are valid.

[EricW]

The solution to outlaw matches of all varieties is to offer value in affiliation.

[Flexmoney]

The solution to outlaw matches of all varieties is to offer value in affiliation.

Right, and that is something that was missing from the SC organization. There really wasn't a network of clubs to speak of. I ran an SC match here in Ohio, but the next closest match was 4 hours away...in another state. There was no central support to build out a network of clubs.

That is something that USPSA has in place...and experience with.

[omnia1911]

My suggestions:

Anyone who is not a USPSA member, and wants to shoot a Steel Challenge match, may shoot his/her first match for free (free as in no membership fee), provided they pass a safety check by a certified USPSA RO. An individual must be a USPSA member to shoot a Steel Challenge match thereafter.

.

Since you don't have to be a USPSA member to shoot level I USPSA matches, seem a little odd to

require USPSA membership to shoot Level I Steel Challenge matches.

Bill

USPSA shouldn't make the same mistake again. USPSA needs a new business model.

USPSA should be a membership (club and individual) driven organization, not classifier and activity fee driven. Memberships require less time, money, and man power to administer.

It is hard enough for clubs to make it running monthly/weekly matches. USPSA should not be taking 20-25% of a club's gate receipts.

[omnia1911]

The Steel Challenge has very specific targets, stage designs, and rules. I would have thought that some copyrights and trademarks would have come along with the USPSA purchase.

[Rob Boudrie]

The solution to outlaw matches of all varieties is to offer value in affiliation.

Well said.

[Chuck Anderson]

My suggestions:

Anyone who is not a USPSA member, and wants to shoot a Steel Challenge match, may shoot his/her first match for free (free as in no membership fee), provided they pass a safety check by a certified USPSA RO. An individual must be a USPSA member to shoot a Steel Challenge match thereafter.

.

Since you don't have to be a USPSA member to shoot level I USPSA matches, seem a little odd to

require USPSA membership to shoot Level I Steel Challenge matches.

Bill

USPSA shouldn't make the same mistake again. USPSA needs a new business model.

USPSA should be a membership (club and individual) driven organization, not classifier and activity fee driven. Memberships require less time, money, and man power to administer.

It is hard enough for clubs to make it running monthly/weekly matches. USPSA should not be taking 20-25% of a club's gate receipts.

The problem with this is attracting new members. If you tell someone that they have to be a USPSA member to shoot Level 1 matches then that first match is going to cost $50.00. You'll never get anyone to come out. It's also not feasible to put a cap on the number of matches that you can shoot before becoming a member. What method is there for keeping people honest who shoot at a couple different clubs. It's not perfect but it beats the alternative.

[Ron Ankeny]

I'll go on record right now saying I think the shoot for money restrictions need to be removed. Suppose I have 30-40 shooters (50 max.) for a state match and I take registration right up until race day. If USPSA institutes a "class" system I'll have nothing but hassles trying to get awards before the match. If there is no class system (my preference) it's easy enough to get some awards for divisions. Still, it's a whole lot easier to beat the bushes for added money or a gun, then slice up the entry fees and pay the money back. Which would you guys rather have, a trophy or a hundred dollar bill? Just thinking out loud here.

[omnia1911]

I've read some references to USPSA being like General Motors or Microsoft in its business model. I disagree. A fundamental difference is that GM and MSFT are for profit businesses with paid employees. The mindset of running those types of business models is very different than running a non-profit corporation that is totally dependent on volunteers. The choices you have to produce income for a corporation that is volunteer based is pretty restrictive. It really relies heavily on feeding into the passions of the individuals for the "cause" of the corporation.

What can the BOD of a non-profit do or say to motivate its members to sacrifice their time and energy for the common good of the corporation? That may be an easier task if your cause is to cure cancer or fight hunger, but supporting the shooting sports is a much more difficult task. What comes to mind was when the Clinton Gun Bill was being passed, there was a significant surge in support for gun related issues and sports. USPSA also benefited from this surge. How can USPSA continue to motivate its support base of gun owners by feeding their competitive desires?

My fear is that USPSA looks more like Starbucks than GM; a Starbucks on every corner, including a plethora of "bootleg" shops that over saturate the market. The competition and overhead costs are taking the luster away from USPSA's premier event, the USPSA Nationals.

USPSA needs to make sure that the decisions that it makes regarding the Steel Challenge, and its desire to spread this shooting sport around the nation, or to increase its revenue stream, will not hurt the uniqueness and desirability of the Steel Challenge Championship, or turn off the support this match has with the gun industry.

USPSA needs to reduce the book keeping and the financial hit that clubs take at Level I matches, making it more desirable to join the cause and become members. USPSA needs to offer incentives clubs to become members by financially assisting them, in some small way, to get "geared up" to put on USPSA matches.

USPSA needs to be there, in person, with the rest of us at the front door to this business, not just sitting in the back room counting the money.

I've been to many Level I matches over the years. Not once have I seen an official USPSA banner hoisted at the range signifying that this is a USPSA event. Why?

It should be required of every affiliated club to erect a banner at the range entrance the day of the match, and at the bays, or on a flag pole, letting any potential new customer know who is offering them this event. Also, a highly visible station should be set up with new membership applications, offering half price annual memberships to new customers. The club should offer to mail in the applications for free. Throw in a free group safety check to boot.

Edited December 25, 2007 by omnia1911

[rgkeller]

>>USPSA needs to be there, in person, with the rest of us at the front door to this business, not just sitting in the back room counting the money.>>

Amen, brother. Preach the word.

[EricBudd]

I've been to many Level I matches over the years. Not once have I seen an official USPSA banner hoisted at the range signifying that this is a USPSA event. Why?

It should be required of every affiliated club to erect a banner at the range entrance the day of the match, and at the bays, or on a flag pole, letting any potential new customer know who is offering them this event. Also, a highly visible station should be set up with new membership applications, offering half price annual memberships to new customers. The club should offer to mail in the applications for free. Throw in a free group safety check to boot.

Great, your welcome to come early to my club on match days and hang up all the banners. Don't forget to take them down after the match is put away. Oh yeah, you might need to bring your own since we don't have any USPSA banners and I'd rather spend the $ the club earns (after payouts, $3/shooter to USPSA, targets, pasters, sticks, and photocopies) to buy props and keep the club going.

In the end, I think we need to be VERY careful about additional mandates on the guys who run clubs/matches. The more work you put on them, the less attractive affiliation looks.

Edited December 26, 2007 by EricBudd

[ffl]

+1

You rarely see a USPSA Banner even outside the Nationals. In Tulsa they had a target on a stand on the main road and that was it. I drove past twice before I noticed it.

Edited December 26, 2007 by ffl

[Exiledviking]

I hope that they change the Divisions over to the USPSA style.

I want to stipple the front strap on my M&P 9mm.

Edited December 28, 2007 by Exiledviking

[rgkeller]

I'll go on record right now saying I think the shoot for money restrictions need to be removed. Suppose I have 30-40 shooters (50 max.) for a state match and I take registration right up until race day. If USPSA institutes a "class" system I'll have nothing but hassles trying to get awards before the match. If there is no class system (my preference) it's easy enough to get some awards for divisions. Still, it's a whole lot easier to beat the bushes for added money or a gun, then slice up the entry fees and pay the money back. Which would you guys rather have, a trophy or a hundred dollar bill? Just thinking out loud here.

A lower match fee.

[mactiger]

+1

You rarely see a USPSA Banner even outside the Nationals. In Tulsa they had a target on a stand on the main road and that was it. I drove past twice before I noticed it.

The banner in Tulsa was hanging at the range entrance gate, not on the main road.

Troy

Edited December 29, 2007 by mactiger

[omnia1911]

I've been to many Level I matches over the years. Not once have I seen an official USPSA banner hoisted at the range signifying that this is a USPSA event. Why?

It should be required of every affiliated club to erect a banner at the range entrance the day of the match, and at the bays, or on a flag pole, letting any potential new customer know who is offering them this event. Also, a highly visible station should be set up with new membership applications, offering half price annual memberships to new customers. The club should offer to mail in the applications for free. Throw in a free group safety check to boot.

Great, your welcome to come early to my club on match days and hang up all the banners. Don't forget to take them down after the match is put away. Oh yeah, you might need to bring your own since we don't have any USPSA banners and I'd rather spend the $ the club earns (after payouts, $3/shooter to USPSA, targets, pasters, sticks, and photocopies) to buy props and keep the club going.

In the end, I think we need to be VERY careful about additional mandates on the guys who run clubs/matches. The more work you put on them, the less attractive affiliation looks.

My point was, that supplying the clubs with a banner was one thing USPSA could do at the front door. For those that don't know where the front door is. It is the clubs all accross the country.

As to having to take the time to put up a banner at the range entrance when you go in. It takes less time than stapling up one target and placing it in a target stand. Come on!

And if you didn't notice, I also was advocating no activity fees for clubs to pay. With the time saved on that process you could use it to hang a USPSA banner.

Edited December 29, 2007 by omnia1911

[AlamoShooter]

I have some very nice banners that I paid for for my club. = I used them four or five times in the past four years. They are nice to have but I only put them up one time this year for my match in August.

JF

[Gary Stevens]

Why not take the "no activity fees" one step farther and say "no club match fee" either?

Gary