Nemo Posted December 18, 2007 Share Posted December 18, 2007 Please excuse my ignorance about the whole Steel Challenge organization and way of doing business. Now that it is a USPSA Match and the SCSA is no more, I have some questions. In no specific order, just as they came to mind. 1 - Will USPSA convert all SC attendees into members, like what we did with the Single Stack Classic? 2 - Will clubs affiliated with the SCSA be granted USPSA affiliation and required to pay mission count for steel matches? 3 - Will all USPSA affiliated clubs receive info and materials necessary to run SC-based steel matches (SC rulebook, stages, scoring software, plans for target construction, etc)? 4 - How does the SC divisions accommodate the guns and gear used in USPSA divisions? 5 - Will the Steel Challenge match in itself be considered the USPSA Steel Nationals while steel state and area matches will be available to all the membership? 6 - How would this acquisition impact the Steel Championship Match held in FL? 7 - Is there a SC classification system? 8 - Will USPSA keep any sort of database of results "a la" classification system? 9 - How will this acquisition benefit the local level shooter that never travels but religiously keeps his/her membership and never misses a local match? Please understand that these questions result from genuine interest and not intended to be confrontational in any way. I have already PM'd these to Flex, Gary Stevens, Rob Boudrie, Bruce Gary and Charles Bond. Looking to learn and see how this will fit my shooting future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaxshooter Posted December 18, 2007 Share Posted December 18, 2007 Why don't you post this on the USPSA web site also. Good post! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricBudd Posted December 18, 2007 Share Posted December 18, 2007 I think the question has been asked earlier in another thread, "Why would a local club already holding steel matches do so under USPSA and (presumably) pay mission count fees?" I can see a few possible reasons, but only if USPSA very proactively markets the idea. The major value I see to USPSA steel is the ability to have standard rules and the ability to administer a class system. On 1st blush I can see using the standard 'Steel Challenge' stages as the classifiers and base the high hit factor on the results from steel challenge over the past 5-10 years. Since USPSA owns the intellectual property they ought to be able to make use of the data. I believe having a standard classification system will benefit steel matches that don't do top-down payouts. It isn't perfect, but it is better than Lewis class. I also think a standard set of rules will help. At least you would know as a shooter from club to club what the rules are and how they will be enforced. Scoring software would be nice, but you can score a steel match in Excel without too much of a problem. USPSA should also keep rim-fire and have a class for cowboy guns. The other question is what mission fees would be. $3.00 to USPSA isn't (too) onerous when the match fee is $20, but it gets to be a bigger bite when local steel matches are $5.00 or $10.00. I don't know - it will be interesting. Regards, Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlamoShooter Posted December 18, 2007 Share Posted December 18, 2007 (edited) I think the USPSA is good , I think Steel and USPSA will be good for each other I can understand how many may feel about a club that has been shooting Steel for years and now are looking at a tax. I did an edit on my feelings= No classification is required for steel as the shooter should join USPSA and get regular USPSA classification. With out the separate classification no reason for the tax to cover the bookkeeping. At our monthly matches we use classes and general divisions =the classes works just fine. Only in the rare case does it not work out to be fair. I think that I may be only one in the area shooting steel past my USPSA class. In 15 years I do not remember a problem with class complaints. The small pond club most shooters wanted to move up to the next level. Its hard on the Ego dam ego Jamie Edited December 20, 2007 by AlamoShooter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Boudrie Posted December 19, 2007 Share Posted December 19, 2007 1 - Will USPSA convert all SC attendees into members, like what we did with the Single Stack Classic? The exact nature of membership needs to be worked out by HQ and will almost certainly be subject to board approval (either by formal motion or by HQ telling the board 'This is what we are about to do, do you object?" I am not aware of any automatic conversion of Single Stack Society members to USPSA members, thought they were and are most welcome to join USPSA. USPSA did not acquire the Single Stack Society so it's not the same situation. 2 - Will clubs affiliated with the SCSA be granted USPSA affiliation and required to pay mission count for steel matches?3 - Will all USPSA affiliated clubs receive info and materials necessary to run SC-based steel matches (SC [rulebook, stages, scoring software, plans for target construction, etc)? 4 - How does the SC divisions accommodate the guns and gear used in USPSA divisions? 5 - Will the Steel Challenge match in itself be considered the USPSA Steel Nationals while steel state and area matches will be available to all the membership? 6 - How would this acquisition impact the Steel Championship Match held in FL? All details to be worked out 7 - Is there a SC classification system? Not at present and no specific current plans for one. 8 - Will USPSA keep any sort of database of results "a la" classification system? I expect there will be a database of results where members will be able to look up their historical results, statistics about stages and matches, etc. I expect to be working closely with USPSA staff on the technical aspects of this. 9 - How will this acquisition benefit the local level shooter that never travels but religiously keeps his/her membership and never misses a local match? The same question could be asked regarding USPSA's support of National Championships, membership in IPSC, or fielding a world shoot team. Each of these services has specific benefit to the members who participate, and indirect benefit to the rest of the members through an increased footprint of USPSA in the competitive shooting marketplace. Currently USPSA is the biggest competitive action shooting organization but not the "dominant force". I want USPSA to be *THE* brand name in practical shooting the same way Microsoft is the brand name in desktop computing, and I feel that this benefits our membership. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nemo Posted December 19, 2007 Author Share Posted December 19, 2007 1 - Will USPSA convert all SC attendees into members, like what we did with the Single Stack Classic? The exact nature of membership needs to be worked out by HQ and will almost certainly be subject to board approval (either by formal motion or by HQ telling the board 'This is what we are about to do, do you object?" I am not aware of any automatic conversion of Single Stack Society members to USPSA members, thought they were and are most welcome to join USPSA. USPSA did not acquire the Single Stack Society so it's not the same situation. True, but when the Single Stack Classic was turned into the USPSA Single Stack Nationals, didn't USPSA made members all those attendees that weren't? Anyway Rob, thanks for your response. We'll see what happens... Time will tell... ********************************************** All, Bruce Gary provided an excellent response to this same post in the USPSA forum. Go check it out. ¡FELIZ NAVIDAD! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgkeller Posted December 19, 2007 Share Posted December 19, 2007 >>I want USPSA to be *THE* brand name in practical shooting the same way Microsoft is the brand name in desktop computing, and I feel that this benefits our membership.<< How? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricBudd Posted December 19, 2007 Share Posted December 19, 2007 OK, if there is no classification system, what benefit does a local steel match get by being USPSA/Steel Challenge affiliated? If I have 50 shooters at a match (assuming mission count is still $1.50/shooter) why would I send USPSA $75? I just don't see how I could make that argument to the BoD of my club (or why I would want to). Unless USPSA can provide a good reason to hold USPSA affiliated steel matches, all they bought was a match in CA. Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted December 19, 2007 Share Posted December 19, 2007 Nemo you are partially correct regarding the SS Nationals. All shooters who were not USPSA members had to join USPSA. I believe we picked up about 40 new members the first year. There was no conversion of members, only new members who wrote out a check and joined USPSA. Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted December 19, 2007 Share Posted December 19, 2007 True, but when the Single Stack Classic was turned into the USPSA Single Stack Nationals, didn't USPSA made members all those attendees that weren't? That match became an USPSA match. Steel Challenge, as reported, will NOT be a USPSA match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgkeller Posted December 19, 2007 Share Posted December 19, 2007 OK, if there is no classification system, what benefit does a local steel match get by being USPSA/Steel Challenge affiliated? If I have 50 shooters at a match (assuming mission count is still $1.50/shooter) why would I send USPSA $75? I just don't see how I could make that argument to the BoD of my club (or why I would want to).Unless USPSA can provide a good reason to hold USPSA affiliated steel matches, all they bought was a match in CA. Eric The crux of the matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricBudd Posted December 19, 2007 Share Posted December 19, 2007 I really believe standard rules and divisions and a classification system are must have items. At least then shooters know what to expect and can compare themselves against the top shooters in the world. By making each 'standard' Steel Challenge stage a classifier you can easily keep our current system (stages + classifier), provide variety (plus let clubs work with the steel they have) and still provide a reason to affiliate. I don't know but I guess the Steel Challenge is shot heads up. Fine. Don't change it. But if you have State/Area steel matches with payouts a classifier system is a good idea. I'm not going to beat the top shooters - and I'm OK with that. I do, however, like to see how I did against comparably skilled competitors. Don't get me wrong, I like steel and I'd like the USPSA/Steel Challenge merger to succeed. I'm just wondering how it is going to work. USPSA is a brand and offers advantages over some 'outlaw' matches. That is why clubs pay $ to USPSA. I'd like to know if that will hold true for the steel matches as well. BTW, I have noticed that out local steel shooters are much more price sensitive than the USPSA shooters. We (as an organization and match directors) will need to take that into account when trying to determine what mission count fees should be. For example the local steel league charges $10/shooter with no payout. If mission count plus classifier is $3 that is 30% of gross to USPSA. Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outerlimits Posted December 19, 2007 Share Posted December 19, 2007 probably have to send mission count $$, cuz i suspect earning a slot for the steel challenge will be like the uspsa nationals. no mission count, no slots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricBudd Posted December 19, 2007 Share Posted December 19, 2007 probably have to send mission count $$, cuz i suspect earning a slot for the steel challenge will be like the uspsa nationals. no mission count, no slots. OK. I'm on the East Coast. None of my shooters go to the Steel Challenge and I don't even have the time to use the slots I get to the USPSA Nationals. So, why send in the $? BTW, what happens to the profitability & cult status of Steel Challenge if you have to earn slots? What about the promise no to change how the match operates? Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Boudrie Posted December 19, 2007 Share Posted December 19, 2007 How? By maximizing the chances that a new club looking to affiliate with an organization chooses USPSA over IDPA, the TSA or whatever other startup is formed by someone who wants to set their own rules without the inconvenience of elected leadership. By maximizing the new shooters go looking for USPSA matches rather than generic action shooting matches. By making USPSA the entity that industry playerswant to sponsor, make deals with, and be associated with. This includes not only sponsors but business deals like the USPSA/Para deal that has already netted USPSA $31K. By making USPSA the most commonly covered action shooting sport on TV, and the de-facto standard when magazine and news articles reference action shooting sports. By providing a mechanism to expose USPSA to more potential members and, hopefully, recruit some of them By getting USPSA into clubs that do not now support a USPSA program. I have already heard from one club local to me that does not have the resources for USPSA Matches but is considering running some steel events. Not everyone will be happy with this purchase, and that is the price of doing something rather than mere perpetuation of the status quo. This business decision is a calculated risk with both upside and downside. The upside won't have us annexing the NRA as a fully owned subsidiary, and the downside won't run us out of business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck D Posted December 19, 2007 Share Posted December 19, 2007 I would have thought that some of Nemo's questions/concerns would have been addressed before makeing such a purchase...... "By maximizing the chances that a new club looking to affiliate with an organization chooses USPSA over IDPA, the TSA or whatever other startup is formed by someone who wants to set their own rules without the inconvenience of elected leadership." This forum continuiously closes threads because of "political" speech and comments made about this organization or that organization. Why ANYONE needs to constantly highlight the obvious...that IDPA's leadership isn't an elected leadership is beyond me. We already know it and obviously IDPA members accept the concept so....why the need for reminders ? People ask questions about why USPSA bought the SC. A qualified answer would consist of the reasonings not the opportunity to put a "dig" into another shooting sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted December 19, 2007 Share Posted December 19, 2007 Enough already... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted December 19, 2007 Share Posted December 19, 2007 I didn't close the other thread so the same players could come over to this one and continue on with the same arguements. Brian's forum is about the shooting. If you are coming here to argue politics...go away. I don't care if you are right or wrong... If you can't help yourself from those type of posts...I'll be obligated to help you out. - Admin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outerlimits Posted December 19, 2007 Share Posted December 19, 2007 classification ought to be easy...since the SC is the superbowl of that genre, and "world records" for each stage already exist (i know, they'll be broken as time goes by), you already have the 100% score for each. one could get classified in one local match...but that would be expensive... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Wonder Posted December 20, 2007 Share Posted December 20, 2007 How? By maximizing the chances that a new club looking to affiliate with an organization chooses USPSA over IDPA, the TSA or whatever other startup is formed by someone who wants to set their own rules without the inconvenience of elected leadership. By maximizing the new shooters go looking for USPSA matches rather than generic action shooting matches. By making USPSA the entity that industry playerswant to sponsor, make deals with, and be associated with. This includes not only sponsors but business deals like the USPSA/Para deal that has already netted USPSA $31K. By making USPSA the most commonly covered action shooting sport on TV, and the de-facto standard when magazine and news articles reference action shooting sports. By providing a mechanism to expose USPSA to more potential members and, hopefully, recruit some of them By getting USPSA into clubs that do not now support a USPSA program. I have already heard from one club local to me that does not have the resources for USPSA Matches but is considering running some steel events. Not everyone will be happy with this purchase, and that is the price of doing something rather than mere perpetuation of the status quo. This business decision is a calculated risk with both upside and downside. The upside won't have us annexing the NRA as a fully owned subsidiary, and the downside won't run us out of business. Typical BOD rhetoric........I agree with Joe D. No need for anti-IDPA comments. IDPA members appreciate the consistency in organizational structure that IDPA provides. Most, if not all clubs, do not have to make a choice between USPSA, IDPA, TSA, Steel, SASS, Bullseye, or others. Clubs with members who shoot the various sports will start matches for the ones they prefer. Most clubs have many different disciplines and are successful at running them. I personally don't agree that USPSA would be the best organization as an umbrella for many disicplines. In regards to the Steel Challenge, we can only hope that nothing changes in the way the match is organized or ran, as it is a very successful match as it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warpspeed Posted December 20, 2007 Share Posted December 20, 2007 There is no need for a classification system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlamoShooter Posted December 20, 2007 Share Posted December 20, 2007 (edited) I think the USPSA is good , I think Steel and USPSA will be good for each other I can understand how many may feel about a club that has been shooting Steel for years and now are looking at a tax. I did an edit on my feelings= No classification is required for steel as the shooter should join USPSA and get regular USPSA classification. With out the separate classification no reason for the tax to cover the bookkeeping. At our monthly matches we use classes and general divisions =the classes works just fine. Only in the rare case does it not work out to be fair. I think that I may be only one in the area shooting steel past my USPSA class. In 15 years at our club, I do not remember a problem with class complaints. The small pond club most shooters wanted to move up to the next level. Its hard on the Ego dam ego Jamie Ok I did and edit 2001 Edited December 20, 2007 by AlamoShooter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chendersby Posted December 20, 2007 Share Posted December 20, 2007 Thump thunp thump thunp thump thump thunp thump thump thunp thump thunp thump thunp thump... That is the sound of USPSA's black helicopter circling your house Why is it so hard to believe we bought the SC match for the match itself? We did not do this to take over and create USPSA steel. The SC is very successful as it is and I have no desire to screw with that. The Mike's wanted to retire and believed we would be a good org to carry on what they have built and take it to the next level. Please stop all the conspiracy theories. Mission count, slots, changing divisions, absorbing the steel org into USPSA are all ideas coming from you guys not USPSA. Right now the goal it to have a successful SC match in 2008 and learn as much as possible about how the Mike's run one of the best pistol events in the world. How the SC match and organization will be structured within USPSA is yet to be determined. As always member input is welcome but let's keep it based on reality not bad assumptions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlamoShooter Posted December 20, 2007 Share Posted December 20, 2007 Thump thunp thump thunp thump thump thunp thump thump thunp thump thunp thump thunp thump... As always member input is welcome but let's keep it based on reality not bad assumptions OK I looked out side I seem to be safe. The thing an old girlfriend once said that stuck with me ....." I, Want to Believe You" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Meek Posted December 20, 2007 Share Posted December 20, 2007 Thump thunp thump thunp thump thump thunp thump thump thunp thump thunp thump thunp thump... As always member input is welcome but let's keep it based on reality not bad assumptions OK I looked out side I seem to be safe. The thing an old girlfriend once said that stuck with me ....." I, Want to Believe You" Are you sure? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now