3 Gun/Multi-gun match does and don'ts

[benelli2]

Perhaps a couple could have, but I doubt many, the stages were walked by the AMU and the MD and RM's previous to the match. As it has been pointed out most of the DQ's were due to just going to fast; bumping a pistol with a rifle and knocking it out, no way to control from stage design unless you don't do multi gun, pistol coming out due to snagging in prop? 1 out of over 200, all were aware of the prop, just comes down to speed in executing, putting guns down to quiclky rather than setting down safely, I recognize some carpet may have helped this but would not have fixed all occurances, barrels to put them in would have possibly fixed a couple that came off the table but may have led to others due to tossing in and knocking off the safety or it not being in when it went into the barrel or drum, leaving guns loaded without safety on as designated as the safe condition, shooting metal objects within 3 meters, just not safe for shooter RO or spectator, nor contributing to the longjevity of the prop. If we want to have fun and run around props and change guns within a stage these hazards will exist, as Kurt pointed out some can be overcome, but this match probably had more people changing more guns in more stages than any two other matches of the year, not counting the running and outstanding props, no amount of telling someone to put a safety on or be careful matters once the buzzer goes off, its on the shooter to execute. No one wants anyone Dq'ed, it sucks, I've been on both sides of that discussion, but also noone wants stages with no movement or action and we all love multi gun so I don't see all these hazards coming out of any match, I'm sure we will all be working to capture these recommendations in designs for next year across the country, but we must be safe in order to avoid any incidents that may jepordize a match location or our sport. IMHO

jc

[Scout454]

Jeff,

I believe the walkthrough might have helped in pointing out the possible 180 problems on 7 (first paper target) and the static before the DT's on 8. It might have also prevented the mixed instructions for stage 8. The match was well run and set up and it set the bar for all of the matches to follow - it was easily the best match I've had the pleasure to be associated with - I would simply like to see it perfect.

[Helmut]

If you got DQ'd......suck it up and take it.....don't bitch after the match. The time to bitch is at the match to the match director with your $100 bill in hand, not cry about it later.

But to get back on topic.....I would love to see that there was a common set of rules and common set of scoring. OK I WILL SET MY CRACK PIPE DOWN. But we have so many different versions of 3-gun matches (rules and scoring), from the national level to the local level, it is getting insane. Everything from different sets of proceedures, equipment & guns for each match gets many people frustrated, due to cost and just remembering where you are when you shooting a match. OK CRACK PIPE IS BACK IN HAND!

Garret Hawkins

Edited December 7, 2007 by Helmut

[Bronco]

Garret dude, lay off the crack and smoke some weed, mellow out.

[Helmut]

Garret dude, lay off the crack and smoke some weed, mellow out.

i just get off on how it bubbles in the bowl...haha

Edited December 8, 2007 by Helmut

[Benelli Chick]

On long range steel:

Anybody know the name of the flashers that were used at the Johnson 3 gun? There was a little motion sensor on the back of the target and when hit it flashed a strobe light. These things looked very promising. I'd set a speaker next to the shooter that would give audible feedback. Since I shot irons I had no problem seeing the flash but it might be different using a scope since the strobe was several feet from the target.

They're called Flash Target. www.flashtarget.com or www.flashtarget.net

The only issue is you have to protect the wires pretty well. Eddie Rhodes uses them at local matches and has finally come up with a wire burial system that works pretty well, but if you don't bury them, they will get shot... a lot!

[Bill Sahlberg]

For falling type rifle targets that can be reset at long distances with 550 cord (can be draped over any terrain) R&R Targets have been working on a self leveling base to hold up the steel and let it fall. This is a mechanical reseting mechanism and fail proof as Kurt had suggested earlier. For info go to www.randrracingonline.com

The resetting targets are great for practice and at certain places in a match but when you have multiple targets downrange even with good RO / shooter communication on the order of engaging when Murphy's Law happens even the best/fairest RO can make mistakes both in your favor and against your favor.

The Ephrata 3 Gun match in the spring of 2008 is suppose to have some of these targets set up and on display. This is Carl Carbon / Pat Kelley's great one day, no prize table, 3 Gun match in mid Washington that always sells out months before the match!

[springy]

Stage design does and don'ts

Never paint long range rifle targets white, this color just plain disapears in many lighting conditions. Black with a white background is the best! Barring that, flourecent orange, green or blue are better than white by far. Always paint steel between squads! and let iron sight and non magnified optics shoot first.

Knock down targets are much better than anyother type even for long range rifle as long as you have a way to reset. This alleviates the friction between the R.O. calling hits and the shooter.

Feel free to chim in! and add to the list and we can all help make 3-gun better. Kurt Miller

.03

I'm a little strange on this stuff......I have my own mig, and have learned to pick up every piece of steel I can lay my hands on.

Absolutely have black targets. It really gets old watching white targets disappear as the day rolls by, and being told it's too bad that I can't see them. A chunk of white corplast (advertising sign) behind the targets would make them the same for everyone to shoot (how novel!). And you don't have to paint them - ever! The hits make them black. The corplast will take hits all day and never show.

A falling target - must be reset. Here's where the mig and lots of scrap steel come in. I'm thinking the flash targets have a bracket on the back. Use that target as a "set on the ground" falling plate. Have a lever behind it to stand it back up, with an operating arm that goes 3 or 4 feet over to the side, and run 1/8" cable up to the firing line. All the cables from all the targets hook up to the same reset site at the firing line. It would take a little while to set up, but now: you got falling targets, that everybody can see all day, that don't need to be painted, that can be shot in any order, and can all be reset by 1 person in about 10 seconds.

All that cable? How many ranges run huge 3gun matches. The cable comes on 600' spools, it's dedicated to the annual match, and you roll it back up on the spool each year.

Somebody has to figure out something with this. Eventually someone is going to get pissed enough to demand the long range be thrown out because the targets were clear this morning and now they're almost invisible.

michael

[Paule]

Robbie Wright (R&R Racing) is working on a new knockdown rifle target that can be reset from the shooting position(s). He says it works well and resets easily using paracord out to 200 yards. I haven't seen it, but he is planning to start using them in some local matches to work any bugs out.

A good way to test shotgun reloading skills and moving target skills would be a good old fashioned duck flush stage. Incoming targets for 90-120 seconds and most broken targets wins. Besides the no BS factor. it would be a hoot to shoot. Duck Flush always makes me smile, no matter how many clays hit the deck unshot.

[hoodhazard]

Consistent officiating#1.I believe they are supposed to a fair match/contest with rules that apply to all.Not an exhibition for public interest.Sometimes I'm not so sure.

[buzzworm]

All of Kurt's suggestions sound good, but one stands out to me as it it a pet PITA. Running for the sake of running. We are in a shooting match, not a track meet. (yea, I know it should have some physical challenges, but some are not about shooting)

At a local match last month, the MD told everyone there that he would put on his old "engage with a handgun, then run back the full 100 yds to get to your rifle" stage this month. This was just after a stage where we engaged 100 yd steel, then did a 50 yd dash to engage shotgun poppers. If the clock is running, a fast runner with so-so shooting skills can take the stage because he can clear the 100 yd dash, which has nothing to do with shooting. I have seen, as most others have, a good shooter loose a "track event" stage not because he shot poorly, but because he could not run as fast just to get to his gear/weapon. (no I'm not worried about running, as I run several times a week, but some folks just can't do it)

If you have to run more than a few yards, put some targets there to engage, or a second timer at the "finish line" to time the shooting, not the running, then add the two shooting times together for a total.

By the way, the MD is going to be worn out after running back 100 yds with all the shooters

[mike.45]

Stage 1 at the Ft. Benning 3 gun should become the model of rifle target presentation for all 3 gun matches!

Totally agree, the long rifle target presentations at Benning this year were fantastic, and even I hit them all !!

The Black steel with a large yellow background were the best set up I have seen in IMG. Well done guys.

[Religious Shooter]

The Black steel with a large yellow background were the best set up I have seen in IMG. Well done guys.

What's the large yellow background made out of? Can you see misses with these backings? That's usually the knock on having a colored backing --- you can't see the misses and use it to adjust.

[bigbrowndog]

RS, it was yellow coroplast, or at least thats what it looked like to me. Seeing the TARGET is much more important to me, than seeing my misses. Generally if i'm missing its my fault.

Trapr

[maineshootah]

The Black steel with a large yellow background were the best set up I have seen in IMG. Well done guys.

What's the large yellow background made out of? Can you see misses with these backings? That's usually the knock on having a colored backing --- you can't see the misses and use it to adjust.

We use the yellow forsale signs available from you Low... or Hom...Dep... stores.

They are made of coroplast.

[Religious Shooter]

RS, it was yellow coroplast, or at least thats what it looked like to me. Seeing the TARGET is much more important to me, than seeing my misses. Generally if i'm missing its my fault.

If there is no wind... I wouldn't argue with you. But if there is a strong gusting wind you are taking away one of the shooter's tools in calling the wind.

[bigbrowndog]

OK???

Trapr

[BigDave]

Don't have long courses follow short/speed courses. Great matches flow and few things chap my hide as a shooter more than a long wait due to poor planning.

Also, not all stages need to be 30+ rnd ballistic orgasms. Small stages with tight and tough shots are often more fun and more of a challenge because you can't afford to be sloppy.

(edited so as to say what I meant)

Edited December 14, 2007 by BigDave

[mike.45]

But if there is a strong gusting wind you are taking away one of the shooter's tools in calling the wind

I would surggest that actually being able to clearly see the target at 300m is more beneficial than not being able to see it but being able to see dust where rounds are impacting - missing the target you cant really see in the first place !

Plus the fact the yellow backgrounds did not cover a huge space behind the target, just enough to clearly outline the target area.

[ArturoJ]

+1000 Mike.

I like to SEE the target.

5:00 PM on stage 5 of the 2004/2005 (I forget witch one) SMM3G even scope shooters could not see the ~250 yard steel at x4 power. Shooting an EOTech, I just took a best guess poke at it, moved on and took the +10.

[Religious Shooter]

If the backing is small enough then possibly you can see the misses. If it's a big sheet and doesn't allow you to see the misses... IMHO it's no good.

Sure you can see it. But what good is that if the wind is pushing the bullet off target and you can't see where it is hitting?

Think of all the time you have used that puff of dirt to adjust your aim. Now consider the implications if you can't do that anymore?

But whatever. I guess I'm in the minority.

[Still Praying]

All of Kurt's suggestions sound good, but one stands out to me as it it a pet PITA. Running for the sake of running. We are in a shooting match, not a track meet. (yea, I know it should have some physical challenges, but some are not about shooting)

+3 on that.

I think moving more than 10yds with out shooting or moving more than 50yds on one stage is a Marathon match, set up for 20 to 30 year old's. Now I would say, most of the shooters out there are over 30. They are the ones that have the most $$$ and spend the most $$$. It looks to me like we would want them to have a good time and not a HEART ATTACK.

I know some really good shooters that are over 30 with a bad knee or some other problem and wont shoot some of these matches, just because of stuff like this. I think the sponsors of these matches would like to see them shooting and not fishing.

Yes I'm 46 and don't run as fast as I did at 16, but I'm not just talking about myself.

I also like the idea of more time between stages on Multi guns to get your gear and mags ready for the next one. I find myself getting ready for the next stage and not pasting or resetting targets like I should be.

Just another 2 cents.

Ronnie

BTW, Ft. Benning was a blast.

[gl]

If you got DQ'd......suck it up and take it.....don't bitch after the match. The time to bitch is at the match to the match director with your $100 bill in hand, not cry about it later.

But to get back on topic.....I would love to see that there was a common set of rules and common set of scoring. OK I WILL SET MY CRACK PIPE DOWN. But we have so many different versions of 3-gun matches (rules and scoring), from the national level to the local level, it is getting insane. Everything from different sets of proceedures, equipment & guns for each match gets many people frustrated, due to cost and just remembering where you are when you shooting a match. OK CRACK PIPE IS BACK IN HAND!

Garret Hawkins

This guy is freakin' Einstein!.............or Hitler.............or the Dali Lama. Or me.........his soul is condemned to HELL!

Why doesn't anyone listen to this guy? We need standard IPSC and non-IPSC match rules. Period.

Or I am going to start the 'Rainbow match' here in Texas. Bennie will be invited since he (her) has has a rainbow sticker on his back window.

Love,

Guy

P.S. Ammo prices are bad enough but with so many rules people have to have the bank account of Bill Gates just to keep the equiptment to shoot them all!

Edited January 3, 2008 by gl

[scirocco38s]

I like most of the 3gun events I get to shoot. I understand that match organizers are looking for ways to make running the match more efficiently, and scoring easier, but I do not agree with the FB3gun scoring of 1 a or 2 anywhere on paper as it tuns it into a speed match. I like some of the matches that require x number of hits and then take point down and add time,as that brings the accuracy back into the match. I dont think all stages should be weighted the same as 25 round pistol/shotgun stage that can be shot in 20-30 seconds with no equipment problems should not have the same point value as a 45 rifle stage, or a 60 round multigun stage. I know everyone who runs these matches feel that they have hit the perfect formula, but if we all used the same rules and scoring outside of what IPSC/USPSA matches use, I think it would make everyones life easier, shooter, and match administratively.

I dont mind the run of 20-30 yards from 1 shooting position to the other as long as there is something for me to shoot at while running there. To run there in itself isnt my cup of tea as I am getting older and bigger and my knees hurt all the time.

As for people dropping weapons and breaking 180's and other things such as shooting barricades, I beleieve all of us know and accept the rules involving these things but if on stage A, you shoot the barricade or the plastic drum with a shotgun its a DQ and then on stage B if you shoot the steel framed vision barrier with a rifle round nothing happens is where people get their butt on their shoulders. Sometimes the RO's dont catch it and thats the breaks, then it is on the shooter to either take the break or remove himself from the match.

[Merlin Orr]

.........

Edited January 3, 2008 by Merlin Orr