Letter I sent to my Area Director

[Jim Norman]

Troy,

somewhere between a long term (4-7 years?) and an annual (less than 8 month lead) we should be able to hit on something that works.

True, a lot of people got tired of going to Barry year after year. Maybe a lot of people thought that there was something not visible going on, I don't know and don't care.

A reverse auction held two years in advance on a regular bassis for a two-year contract might be the answer. We'd know when and where and we'd likely get a good price from the clubs that are willing and able to host a match of our size. Send out the invites with the specifics to the viable hosts, allow anyone that is likely to build a facility in required time frame to also bid, but insist on a time cushion and see what the results are.

What we currently have is not working. We need to change it.

Jim

[zhunter]

BTW, this same letter was posted HERE on the USPSA Forum

[scirocco38s]

I beg to differ with Bruce and Rob. In the past, prior to this president's terms in office, the Nationals dates were spelled out in advance. Granted, they were generally held at PASA, under a long term contract, but we knew when (and where) they were going to be held.

Since the membership howled about long term contracts, we are now in the position of looking for venues one year at a time, but there is no reason those contracts can't be negotiated a year ahead of time. How many places are there to look at, realistically, and why can't those particular ranges be contacted a year or two in advance? It's not that complicated--pick a spot, work out the terms, and get it done.

Troy

The membership might have howled at the longterm contract with PASA but then we new when and where almost every year. Now I dont care what facility is used, but we should be able to know a year in advance. The negotiating angle is BS. You can negotiate with the same power or even more when its further off because the place your are negotiating with can look at it as guaranteed future revenue. If things fall thru due to something unexpected then you negotiate from a less strong position because you are now in a bind. We have several venues across the country that can handle this,I know of at least 5, but we have to be able to schedule with more consideration of the membership not the BOD and President. Remeber, without us there is no need for you, and we elected some of you to make things work the way we need. In fact our convenience should outweigh yours. The single biggest problem with this is not only the scheduling of time off to make these events, but also to schedule sectional and other matches that dont conflict with the nationals( be it whichever of the 3 it is). This cant be stressed enough. If this upsets the president, thats ok too.

[Chris Keen]

All I can say is ..... we have had more response / input from the BOD regarding this issue than the man actually responsible for getting it done.

[XRe]

The solution is to move the whole process up a year or so, so that we can *comfortably* negotiate with the two-years-out venue.

but there is no reason those contracts can't be negotiated a year ahead of time. How many places are there to look at, realistically, and why can't those particular ranges be contacted a year or two in advance? It's not that complicated--pick a spot, work out the terms, and get it done.

+1 to both of these.

Z - you know I agree with you that the current situation really stinks. I don't think putting a Bylaws designated drop dead date on it is the right thing to do, though.

What might be entertaining, though, is if you were willing to do a little leg work - write a polite but direct editorial letter to Front Sight, and include a membership petition where you've gotten folks to get on board with what you wrote. They could just email you ahead of time or something. Sort of an open letter to the management type of thing. I wonder if that wouldn't shake the tree some... ???

[zhunter]

Dave

You know I am willing to spearhead things for the good of the sport. But, what makes you think Front Sight would publish such a letter??????

I posted the same letter on the USPSA Forum, you know, the one that OUR President should see!!!

[Sestock]

Since MV delegates his duties as match director to others to shoot the matches. Maybe as soon as he gets the dates set for a nationals he could start working on setting up the agreement for the next year.

What exactly does MV do for USPSA for most of the year?

[Flexmoney]

Folks, I've already got PM's about this thread. If you are posting here to complain...just don't. We don't need to hear the politics on it here...it's against the forum rules.

The only way this thread can stay open is if the post made from here out are discussing valid points...with a goal toward solving the issue.

In other words...cut out the digs on the leadership of USPSA !

You have an opportunity here to talk with a few members of the BOD. Listen to what they are saying. Then, perhaps they will be more inclined to listen to what you have to say as well.

[HSMITH]

The negotiation angle has been pretty much squashed, but business is business. Anyone that would allow the negotiating party from the range to KNOW if the other ranges have bid and how much the other bids might be has no business at all taking part in the arrangements. Set a deadline for the venues, you will submit your fees to use your range for the Nationals on these dates BY this date, USPSA will notify you if your range has been selected by THIS date. Granted it is a bit more complicated than that, but the concept is the same.

If that is too hard line for someone then pick a date for the next three years, set it in STONE. Negotiate from there which range gets it this year and for what price, next year and the next year. Have the following three years DONE one year in advance of this contract expiring.

No other sport I can think of has their national championship announced 6 months prior. Every single sport I can think of KNOWS when the National championship will be and WHERE at least a year in advance and usually several years in advance. USPSA really does OWN the Nationals, the ranges will participate if they want to host a National championship event.

[XRe]

You know I am willing to spearhead things for the good of the sport. But, what makes you think Front Sight would publish such a letter??????

For starters, I'd give them the benefit of the doubt - but a list of concerned members (ie, the petition) should add some reason to publish as well, I should think. If it were written politely (I have no doubt that you can do that ), there really wouldn't be a good reason not to publish it - and the folks on the petition will know that you sent it. If it doesn't show up, letters from each petitioner pour in the door, along with letters to BOD members, etc, etc I'm not saying that you'd have to threaten them - I wouldn't construe what I'm saying to mean that at all. But, I would think that demonstrating the concern a bunch of us have should at least help the issue get a voice in front of the whole membership....

Just a thought, anyway.

I'm not really sure how else to institute it - the BOD members can do their best (and I'm sure our resident folks will support a good idea). But any real pressure for change is going to come from the membership as a whole....

[Religious Shooter]

A lot of you guys are assuming that all these clubs are clamoring to hold the Nationals.

Can you please name these clubs who:

1) want to hold the Nationals,

2) are actually capable of providing the labor and have the facilities to adequately have the match,

3) are willing to hold it for the $$ that USPSA is capable of paying and

4) is actually capable of commiting this 1-2 years in advance (the way some of you guys expect)?

[mactiger]

A lot of you guys are assuming that all these clubs are clamoring to hold the Nationals.

Can you please name these clubs who:

1) want to hold the Nationals,

2) are actually capable of providing the labor and have the facilities to adequately have the match,

3) are willing to hold it for the $$ that USPSA is capable of paying and

4) is actually capable of commiting this 1-2 years in advance (the way some of you guys expect)?

I can think of 6 right off, if some of the criteria aren't hard and fast, such as "want to hold the Nationals"--

PASA (Multigun, also)

USSA (Multigun, also)

Frank Garcia's Range (I don't remember what it's called)

The Shootout (Kay and Jerry's range near Bossier City, LA--at least for multigun)

Desert Sportsman in Vegas (MG, too)

Deer Creek Range, in Missoula (again, good location for MG)

Sometimes the problem is not locating the range, but locating someone willing and able to produce the match.

[Jim Norman]

To answer HSSMITH and anyone else...

A "Reverse Auction" is a standard business practice used when the buyer, not the seller wants to be in control and has multiple willing sellers that all really want their product to be the one that the buyer will use.

As an example, Wal-Mart, Lowe's and many other large retailers use this method in the construction departments of their companies. They, the buyers, produce a specification, then this is sent to the vendors (in our case this would be the ranges) to bid on. all bids are open to all the other bidders. What happens next is each bidder looks over his numbers and either stands or makes changes to their proposal. They may sweeten the pot with non-monetary items such as "Barry Bucks" or convincing a large hotel to provide meeting rooms and a ball room for free, or restaurants in town to offer a special discount to Nats Badge Holders. No bidder has to lower his price, but he may, and USPSA is not obligated to take the low bid.

This does insure that USPSA does get the best deal.

Jim

[Rob Boudrie]

The negotiation angle has been pretty much squashed

Proof by declaration

[Chuck Anderson]

I'm willing to write a letter to my AD discussing my feelings on the matter.

To Bruce Gary,

Thank you for the job that the BOD is doing. I know from past experience how hard it is to get ranges willing to host National events. I also know about the little things that cause kinks when scheduling those matches a ways out. Silly little things like ranges that get greedy after a deadline is announced like COSSA did a couple years ago when they tried to drastically increase the charge to USPSA when it came down to the deadline to sign the contract (Exactly like what was mentioned earlier). Or a couple years back when all the hotel rooms in Quincy dried up because of some swim meet in town. Or the Area 4 match that had to be moved to a different date because of a convention or some silly thing in town. I know that while no Area or Section matches would schedule over the Nationals, other folks who don't shoot could care less about us. And I know why the BOD and the President aren't willing to announce potential dates or venues until the contract is actually signed. (See the COSSA reference above). I appreciate that the BOD and the President did not jump the gun this year and announce dates early. While I apologize to the folks who won't be able to attend because they couldn't get their vacation request in, that is unfortunate. But I would much prefer a solid match date and location before I make my vacation plans only to have them change.

As far as the ranges listed by Troy, I wonder how many are clamoring to host a Nationals. Not wanting to get personal and I know they have new management but the last Nationals I went to in Vegas was an embarassment. There are certainly other ranges capable of hosting a Nationals. The problem is getting the crew on the ground willing to deal with USPSA to put them on.

Signed,

Chuck Anderson

Edited December 2, 2007 by Lawman

[Rob Boudrie]

As far as the ranges listed by Troy, I wonder how many are clamoring to host a Nationals.

Just because a range had the facilities and is interested, does not mean it will work. I remember one very qualified range that made an excellent proposal - and included a "non-negotiable multi year committment" - without any track record of hosting a USPSA Nationals as a starting point for discussion.

I know another qualified range that was scheduled to run a large USPSA (not nationals) match that made the mistake of announcing the location before a contract was signed. Guess what? The price doubled when the match director attempted to make the transition from "verbal understanding" to "signed contract".

It's very simply to say "all these clubs will do it", but the list starts to narrow when you get down to details.

[zhunter]

It's very simply to say "all these clubs will do it", but the list starts to narrow when you get down to details.

I don't doubt that at all. It is certainly a finite number who have the will and the facilities to host the match/matches, which should make getting it done easier, as there are not that many viable options.

Does waiting to the LAST minute help the USPSA in any way?

Does waiting to the LAST minute help the USPSA membership in any way?

Does waiting to the LAST minute hinder the USPSA membership?

Edited December 2, 2007 by zhunter

[Catfish]

Does waiting to the LAST minute help the USPSA in any way?

Does waiting to the LAST minute help the USPSA membership in any way?

Does waiting to the LAST minute hinder the USPSA membership?

1. nope

2. nope

3. yep

[mactiger]

As far as the ranges listed by Troy, I wonder how many are clamoring to host a Nationals.

Just because a range had the facilities and is interested, does not mean it will work. I remember one very qualified range that made an excellent proposal - and included a "non-negotiable multi year committment" - without any track record of hosting a USPSA Nationals as a starting point for discussion.

I know another qualified range that was scheduled to run a large USPSA (not nationals) match that made the mistake of announcing the location before a contract was signed. Guess what? The price doubled when the match director attempted to make the transition from "verbal understanding" to "signed contract".

It's very simply to say "all these clubs will do it", but the list starts to narrow when you get down to details.

I never said they all wanted the match, nor would it work everywhere. I just came up with 6 places off the top of my head. I know about and understand most of the negotiations that were done in the past. I firmly believe that there is NO reason why selecting a location for Nationals can't be done a year in advance, and a contract signed. Even if it's a multi-year contract. The bylaws state that the President can't sign a contract for longer than the remaining years on his term, but since Michael Voigt got re-elected, we could go with at least a 3 year contract.

One point: many other shooting sports have their matches planned and dates reserved well in advance. One thing they do is always hold the match at the same location. Moving the match around the country doesn't serve USPSA or the membership well, IMO. Lock it in place somewhere and put in a long-term (at least 3 years, but maybe not more than 5), contract with dates pre-selected and published. Better deal on range rental, props, hotel arrangements, etc.

Negotiations are negotiations, but as they say, that contract ain't gonna sign itself. Somebody has to work on it.

Troy

[LPatterson]

Troy brought up a good point that by-laws restrict the President from signing a contract longer than his/her time in office. Since Michael was up for reelection could he actually negotiate for anything longer than a 1 year contract? Maybe the BOD needs to look into a change in the by-laws setting an overall length of contract. If there were a five year contract with USSA, how long would it be before people started complaining about the weather in August with rain & hot weather or in June with tornado's. It is human nature to complain and as an old soldier I can complain with the best of them. But as a Disaster Preparedness planner, I know that the greatest plan in the world gets screwed up by tiny details.

How about the active people on this board that want a schedule a year or more in advance go to the clubs that they think could/should hold a Nationals and get them to submit a proposal to the President of what they can provide in the way of props, manpower to set up stages, how people can get to the range and what hotel/motel accommodations are available. Consider distance from the hotel to the range, something I have heard a lot of complaints about for Berry & Bend. Transporation (air) to the location, again big complaint at Bend (the range was nice). I am not sure I would want to go to Bend in May (snowed 1 year or was it June) or August/September in Florida (BTDT) don't deal well with huricanes.

What I am trying to say is that almost any location or time the President comes up with, I can think up a reason why I don't like it. So what you want to know at least a year in advance is when & where the Nationals will be so you can consider whether to blow it off or not.

[Rob Boudrie]

Troy brought up a good point that by-laws restrict the President from signing a contract longer than his/her time in office.

A contract longer than the President's term can be signed with consent of the board.

[kimel]

Add Albany Rifle & Pistol Club in Albany OR to Troy's list. They did MG in 2006 and have a very nice range. They could accommodate a pistol Nationals fairly easily from what I saw back in 2006 and I have heard they have continued to improve the facility.

There are a number of other ranges out there that have held Nationals before (Bend, OR to name one) but for a variety of reasons aren't in the mix at the moment.

In reality, picking the Nationals venue and dates is a thankless job. No matter where and when someone is going to bitch.

One thing which doesn't seem to get much consideration is moving Nationals south and thus later in the year. FL, LA, AZ etc all have venues which can handle a Nationals size match and they also offer some weather advantages. How many big matches are there in November? I can only think of one...in Arizona. And Area 2 sells out every year in large part because those from the frozen north are escaping to the warmth and sunshine.

Scheduling later in the year (or very early in the year for that matter) also takes some of the pressure off all the Area and other large matches held in states where the shooting season is May through September for weather reasons.

I wouldn't want to see the Nationals moved permanently to the Southern tier but tossing those into the rotation would be great. Plus, they have some mighty fine food down south.

[Chuck Anderson]

Add Albany Rifle & Pistol Club in Albany OR to Troy's list. They did MG in 2006 and have a very nice range. They could accommodate a pistol Nationals fairly easily from what I saw back in 2006 and I have heard they have continued to improve the facility.

There are a number of other ranges out there that have held Nationals before (Bend, OR to name one) but for a variety of reasons aren't in the mix at the moment.

I wouldn't count on the team that put on any of the Nationals held in Oregon to be jumping on the bandwagon to hold another event run by Sedro Woolley anytime soon. And with all due respect to the few active members at Bend, I wouldn't give COSSA a dime until their whole board is gone. Finding a venue really is not as easy as a lot of people seem to think. It's not just getting a couple people to sign off, there are normally a lot. Just to run the Area 1 Championship in Sherwood this year we had to get the buy off from about 20 different people. Any one of whom could have torpedoed the whole deal.

As far as the multi year deal goes. I started shooting Nationals in 2001. I thought they were always supposed to be at PASA. I couldn't believe how many people complained about PASA. The weathers too hot, the weather is too wet, it's too hot and wet, the tornadoes blew down all of our props. Not everyone is going to be happy. And to be honest, if anyone thinks complaining about it on this forum is going to do a bit of good, put the keyboard down and take a step back.

[Loves2Shoot]

And with all due respect to the few active members at Bend, I wouldn't give COSSA a dime until their whole board is gone.

I agree 100% (COSSA is my home club for those that don't know) and our board that did that were COMPLETE MORONS!!! I let my feeling be known to the board members also. I would not blame anyone for sharing Lawman's feelings.

OK, know that you know how I really feel. What the board of COSSA did (which is not part of the action club) was totally unacceptable on many levels. They also tried that crap with other event and lost most all of the big matches for that year in the other disciplines also, since that they have gone back to reasonable rates.

Bend has most everything needed for nationals IF they get the help from the Portland and Albany folks, but without their support, it is not an option for a Nationals venue IMO. They now have much better ranges and I don't blame them for wanting to keep the events a bit closer to home. Most people have no idea the effort they put in to make the events here in Bend happen.

Chuck, Tom, Everett, Mike (in no particular order) and many many others make the events in Oregon happen at a very high level.

It is not so much the range that makes a nationals but the crew that does so IMO. Having a couple years to get ready for the match would really improve the qualities of the matches IMO, but it would also take a lot of work and commitment.

[kimel]

The crew makes or breaks a match...that is very true. But without a range, having the world's best crew gets you nowhere. These two factors are mutually dependent and this dependency is what makes the number of available venues so very small.

Now factor in Board's populated by good old boys that figure that running with a gun is dangerous, drawing a loaded gun is dangerous, shooting at steel targets is dangerous, firing more than 1 round a minute is dangerous, etc. and your venues are reduced even further.

Now let's toss in a good measure of political intrigue/discontent and we are down to the current paltry lists of venues.

I am part of a crew that does a Level II and we have had our share of all of these difficulties and this was why there was no 2007 edition of the match. I know where Chuck et al are coming from all too well.