Vertical foregrips?

[Michael Brown]

I tried the search function but was not successful. If this has been discussed ad nauseum, if someone could direct me to the proper thread?

I have not noticed too many vertical foregrips in 3-Gun competition, while they appear to be all the rage in the tactical community.

I have not gone to one but then again, I haven't given them a fair shot either.

What I am curious about is what the opinions in a performance oriented sport like IPSC multi-gun or other 3 gun type matches, are on vertical foregrips.

Michael Brown

[Joe4d]

Competition is a test, that which is foolish or offers no advantage or doesnt work is quickly abandoned, the Tacticool crowd generally is more concerned with photo opps.

That being said there are tactical assesories that are good but not so good in 3 gun type competition. I have zero first hand experience with the foregrip, It looks to me like just more gadgets to get snagged on a strap or get in the way. Either in competition or combat.

[GentlemanJim]

Competition is a test, that which is foolish or offers no advantage or doesnt work is quickly abandoned, the Tacticool crowd generally is more concerned with photo opps.

That being said there are tactical assesories that are good but not so good in 3 gun type competition. I have zero first hand experience with the foregrip, It looks to me like just more gadgets to get snagged on a strap or get in the way. Either in competition or combat.

In my opinion this is just about the PERFECT answer

+1...Jim

[Beretta Lover]

Competition is a test, that which is foolish or offers no advantage or doesnt work is quickly abandoned, the Tacticool crowd generally is more concerned with photo opps.

That being said there are tactical assesories that are good but not so good in 3 gun type competition. I have zero first hand experience with the foregrip, It looks to me like just more gadgets to get snagged on a strap or get in the way. Either in competition or combat.

In my opinion this is just about the PERFECT answer

+1...Jim

Not that they are needed, they probably help certain people with FA shooting

When the KAS SOPMOD kit came out there were alot of SF guys seen with them, they are harder to find now (guys using them)

They can get caught on gear and anything else (like bushes) and doorways and window ledges HMMWV windows etc at bad times

I very rarely see anyone who I have considered to be a super rifle guy using one, Miculek for instance has one of the "nakedest" rifles out there, his AR looks pretty streamlined (devoid of extra unneeded gadgets)

Having said all that, I use one and it helps me get into a very tight standing position without a sling.

I can get my tricep on my support arm in tight between my left pec and the front of my lat, it is actually very quick and stable

but realistcally other than informal shooting and very limited stage scenarios this does not get employed much

I think everyone is generally much quicker without them

[uscbigdawg]

There really is zero need for one in competition. In the real world, it's a personal call. Most do it for looks. Frankly, the only time I ever have used one was while pulling long patrols. Just gives my primary hand a break. Other than that, I (and anyone) can control the better and faster with good off hand technique than with crap hangin' off the rifle.

Rich

[Les Snyder]

I was given a KMC vertical for proof reading the SOPMOD manuscript by a friend that wrote the document. I use it as a mono-pod. I use it when shooting on the move, advancing on targets with elbows tucked in and down, with butt stock centered on sternum... I don't use it for horizontal spread shots...but as Mark said I won't be in the top 20, although he WILL be

regards

Les

[Mick]

There really is zero need for one in competition. In the real world, it's a personal call. Most do it for looks. Frankly, the only time I ever have used one was while pulling long patrols. Just gives my primary hand a break. Other than that, I (and anyone) can control the better and faster with good off hand technique than with crap hangin' off the rifle.

Rich

OH OH, there's that "real world" stuff again....

This is pretty much the right answer as already stated. Why folks turn a perfectly good lightweight rifle into a 10# handfull of parts is beyond me. One of our guys who did 2 tours in Iraq likes his verticle grip for stability but otherwise agrees people hang too much stuff on their guns. A local warrant guy came to our jail and was talking ARs. He pulled out his customized AR that had junk hanging all over it but when I tried the trigger is was total junk. I handed him my AR and said try the JP trigger. I told him I just wanted a decent trgger, good sights, reliable magazines and a BUNCH OF PRACTICE. His gun had barely been fired, mine was 6 months old and had over 2000 rounds through it.

Owning a gun doesn't make you a shooter...

Edited November 5, 2007 by Mick

[Dan Sierpina]

Al Zitta of Z-M Weapons uses a vertical grip. I don't know the brand, but, it has a spring loaded bipod in it. The bipod is not as stable as a Harris though. Al does shoot the gun in Open.

[Bear1142]

I have used one in the past quite extensively, but until recently, their legality for use in matches was in question. A little history. I used a VFG until the 3GN in Oregon last year when they were ruled to be "other similar devices" under the no bipods clause in the rules. For the last 18 months I did not use one. Prior to this years 3GN in Tulsa, the issue came up again and Amidon made a ruling on their use. From what I understand of the ruling, you can use a VFG and you can move it around on the rifle, but you can't take it on/off during the match. It can be used in any way except for the rifle cannot be supported on the VFG at the 6 o'clock position, such as using the VFG to rest on the top of a barricade.

Disclaimer!- Do not take this as the official ruling. Amidon stated he would post a written rule interpretation in the NROI website. I think their use is safe, but I would wait until the written rule interpretation is posted before confronting anyone regarding its use.

Regarding its value in competition, I think it is one of the most underrated advantages in the rifle world. 99% of the people I have seen in both competition and the tactical world don't use them correctly, or maybe I should say don't take full advantage of them. They can be an incredible advantage in several competitive situations, if they are used properly.

Several people have already made the statement, "If they are so good, why aren't the top shooters using them?" I can only say that I think its something that has slipped under the radar. The VFG seems to be a very instinctive thing to use, but most shooters don't use them properly. I think this causes most shooters to dismiss their use too quickly. There are many instances of top shooters using unconventional techniques or equipment that seem to go against conventional thinking, only to have said technique or equipment become the standard over time. I think they will slowly make inroads into competitive circles and they are not totally unknown at the top levels. In addition to myself, current 2-time National Limited Champion Ted Puente uses one. I also know of several other very good, national level shooters that are using them. In the end, don't believe all the negative hype. Give the VFG a try and if it works for you and it improves your shooting, then use it!

Erik

Edited November 5, 2007 by Bear1142

[Chills1994]

Les Snyder wrote:

... with butt stock centered on sternum...

Okay, you're the second guy that I have heard this "buttstock on sternum" thing from.

Why (when, what for, what advanatage, etc.) would you put the buttstock on your sternum?

How do you see your sights or look through your optics then if you don't have a cheekweld?

I had borrowed a DEA/local cop's AR for the longest time and it came with a 600 something dollar Surefire VFG and flashlight combo (at least he said it was 600 dollars and off ebay )

It was neat and added a "tacticool" level to the gun, but other than that, I think at one 3 gun match it did actually get in the way or get snagged on something.

Edited November 5, 2007 by Chills1994

[Bear1142]

Chills1994,

http://www.downrange.tv/player.htm

Watch Part I of the "Bring a Rifle to the Fight" series. It's geared towards the tactical environment, but the technique directly translates to competitive shooting. It should answer most of your questions.

Erik

[Carlos]

Les Snyder wrote:

... with butt stock centered on sternum...

Okay, you're the second guy that I have heard this "buttstock on sternum" thing from.

Why (when, what for, what advanatage, etc.) would you put the buttstock on your sternum?

How do you see your sights or look through your optics then if you don't have a cheekweld?

I had borrowed a DEA/local cop's AR for the longest time and it came with a 600 something dollar Surefire VFG and flashlight combo (at least he said it was 600 dollars and off ebay )

It was neat and added a "tacticool" level to the gun, but other than that, I think at one 3 gun match it did actually get in the way or get snagged on something.

Hi Chills - this technique is awkward at first, but it controls recoil.

How effectively?

Years ago, Bear's team mate & well-known GM Phil Strader was the owner of a gunshop/range. He was also a BATFE licensed class III dealer. He was entitled to have post-86 dealer's sample full auto guns, and his inventory included a full auto/select fire .308 British surplus L1A1 (a variant of the FAL). These guns were a failure in full auto mode because no one could control the gun on full auto. Except - Phil could control it. I watched him fire a continuous 20 round burst into the A zone using this technique. If you try it, it will feel awkward - that is until you get used to it. It also has advantages with 5.56mm guns - particularly during the close range-high speed parts of a stage.

There are other advantages. You could learn it (and other top notch go-fast techniques) from the grand masters just by taking one of the courses offered at USSA.

Regards,

D.

[BPiatt]

While I don't use one for competition, I do have them on my AR's I use for police work.

The vertical grips make carrying the gun in depressed muzzle position for an extended period of time MUCH easier.

Without them, your weakhand wrist is sore in just an hour or so.

HINT: If you're working in cold weather.... plastic grips are better.

[Chills1994]

Okay, I watched the video, but unfortunately they didn't show the "buttstock on sternum" maneuver.

[SinistralRifleman]

I used vertical fore grips for sometime. After taking a tactical rifle class from Bennie Cooley last month, I came to the conclusion they just got in the way. We did a lot of transitioning from strong to support side, and a lot of shooting positions where having the vertical grip in the way just was annoying.

[wsimpso1]

I think that the vertical foregrip and placing the gun on the chest are both carried over from current tactical practice.

The body armor on the front and back works really well while it is less effective on the sides. So in order to allow the body armor to do you the most good, you square up on the threat, and place the butt high on the chest close to the neck. This is not centered on the sternum, but it does get close. Low ready is tiring, but with the VFG, it adds endurance and let's you be strong when you need to bring the gun up or transition across targets, so in real world situations, where fatigue might play into things, it is supposed to be quicker.

Next, if you take a tactical carbine class, the handgaurd gets hot, and if you do not have a VFG, you will wish that you did. Once your train using one, you might be reluctant to change from what you trained with...

One other real world tactics issue is that with the VFG, the elbows are tucked in, so that as you "pie" a space from behind cover, you don't have the elbows out there telegraphing your position so early to the bad guys.

For competition, the VFG felt like I got the gun solidly on target sooner, which lets me shoot on close targets a ltttle more quickly, but it felt like it cost me something on targets requiring more precision. In Michigan, the longest Practical Rifle Targets are 100 yards, and most of our stuff is house clearing drills and other CQB scenarios. So, I kept the VFG on the rifle, but I am now reconsidering taking it back off... Decisions, decisions.

Billski

Edited November 6, 2007 by wsimpso1

[Bear1142]

Chills,

When people talk about the buttstock/sternum technique it's more a figurative reference point rather than a literal location. The buttstock is not placed on the sternum directly underneath the chin. The sternum reference is a way of reminding the shooter that the buttstock should be mounted closer to the center of the chest as opposed to out on the tip of the shoulder.

There is an actual sternum shooting technique, but that involves positioning the rifle in the centerline of the body and pushing forward against a sling. The rifle does not contact the body during firing.

Sorry for the confusion.

Erik

Edited November 7, 2007 by Bear1142

[Chuck Anderson]

While I don't use a VFG on my play rifle for 3-Gun I do have one on my work rifle. This is the gun that I've spent hours pointing at bad guys, houses, and doing other fun stuff. The VFG is a lot more comfortable after a long period of time. It also gives me a spot for my pressure pad for the tactical light which is an LE requirement. For 3-Gun I don't see as much of a need to have it on there. The gun normally only gets held up for a minute or so per stage. Not real tiring.

[kurtm]

Lawman I don't think that a guy your size would even get tired holding a tamping rod let alone a lil ol carbine for hours at a time

VFG aren't new they have been around a long time, just look at a Thompson or Owen SMG. They had faded into history untill the recent resurection. They seem to have lasted for about 15 years the last time. I hope it is much shorter this time so that Erik can get onto the next "THING" and spend less time defending the good Colonel,s work...Thompson that is.

Now for the next "THING" idea! for LE and Military only of course. Make a braket that fits onto the light rail on a pistol and also attaches to a Picatinny rail. Now the front pistol grip is...well.... a pistol. Think of the fast transitions and if the rifle quites you have your pistol already deployed and it is MUCH more stable as it is now attached to a butt stock, but don't forget to have an aiming lazer on your pistol as you won't be able to see the sights! How cool is that Erik?? I expect to see everyone in your agency with one of these within the year. You might approach R.R. arms as they were the ones that built your guy,s rifles werent they? KURTM

[SinistralRifleman]

Now for the next "THING" idea! for LE and Military only of course. Make a braket that fits onto the light rail on a pistol and also attaches to a Picatinny rail. Now the front pistol grip is...well.... a pistol. Think of the fast transitions and if the rifle quites you have your pistol already deployed and it is MUCH more stable as it is now attached to a butt stock, but don't forget to have an aiming lazer on your pistol as you won't be able to see the sights! How cool is that Erik?? I expect to see everyone in your agency with one of these within the year. You might approach R.R. arms as they were the ones that built your guy,s rifles werent they? KURTM

It's already been done by Fobus/CAA/TDI/MAKO/Israeli-Shadow Company of the day.

[foxtrotuniformlima]

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=29723

[Bear1142]

Now for the next "THING" idea! for LE and Military only of course. Make a braket that fits onto the light rail on a pistol and also attaches to a Picatinny rail. Now the front pistol grip is...well.... a pistol. Think of the fast transitions and if the rifle quites you have your pistol already deployed and it is MUCH more stable as it is now attached to a butt stock, but don't forget to have an aiming lazer on your pistol as you won't be able to see the sights! How cool is that Erik?? I expect to see everyone in your agency with one of these within the year. KURTM

Ha! Great idea!, but mucho pequeno! Take your idea and make a mount to attach a pistol and adapt it to pistol ARs!! Now you have another rifle under your first one with another 30 rd. magazine!! Same magazines, same ammunition, same parts, total compatibility!! If you practice you can shoot both at the same time for double your firepower!!

They seem to have lasted for about 15 years the last time. I hope it is much shorter this time so that Erik can get onto the next "THING" and spend less time defending the good Colonel,s work...Thompson that is.

We're almost there as it is. If I recall correctly, VFG's were part of the first SOPMOD kits issued back in 1994. We're coming up on 14 years and I think it's here to stay. I feel like they give me a significant advantage in several situations when compared to a non VFG setup. If you choose to not take advantage of it, so be it. It works for me.

You might approach R.R. arms as they were the ones that built your guy,s rifles werent they?

Nope, another two letter company.

[kurtm]

DARN!! I shold have known....ISRAELIES!!

Erik you CAN'T have a "whole nuther" rifle under your rifle, then you guys couldn't teach transitions, whats the sense in that?

I feel that you using a pistol grip gives me a significant advantage so I am good with it also KurtM

[Chuck Anderson]

I want a mount where I can put my AR under my Glock. That way I don't have to scurry back to the car for a real gun, I've already got it. And Kurt, while I may be big, remember I'm soft and weak like a kitten. That rifle is heavy, especially with all that weight from the VFG out there.

[luxor]

Vertical foregrips aid in muzzle strikes and weapon retention in cqb area's.