accidental discharge

[Scooter]

I had an incident once where I ran up to a door, yanked it opened, and slip and fell on my butt. During the trip down to the ground, I already had the weak hand on the gun and a perfect sight picture on the target. I debated on whether to shoot on the way down to the ground since I wasn't doing anything at the time except waiting to hit the ground. Ended up not shooting. If I had fired a shot, would that warrant a DQ also?

[ima45dv8]

I don't know. I didn't see your face.

[shootingchef]

I had an incident once where I ran up to a door, yanked it opened, and slip and fell on my butt. During the trip down to the ground, I already had the weak hand on the gun and a perfect sight picture on the target. I debated on whether to shoot on the way down to the ground since I wasn't doing anything at the time except waiting to hit the ground. Ended up not shooting. If I had fired a shot, would that warrant a DQ also?

If you are actively engaging targets, you can be upside down if it suits your fancy. There is nothing about feet on the ground!

This thread is reinforcing my desire to turn in my RO card. I have seen so many questionable calls, bad calls, even more calls not made that would have made a difference in match scoring. If you say something; your a bad guy, if you don't, your a bad guy.

[Merlin Orr]

I had an incident once where I ran up to a door, yanked it opened, and slip and fell on my butt. During the trip down to the ground, I already had the weak hand on the gun and a perfect sight picture on the target. I debated on whether to shoot on the way down to the ground since I wasn't doing anything at the time except waiting to hit the ground. Ended up not shooting. If I had fired a shot, would that warrant a DQ also?

If you are actively engaging targets, you can be upside down if it suits your fancy. There is nothing about feet on the ground!

This thread is reinforcing my desire to turn in my RO card. I have seen so many questionable calls, bad calls, even more calls not made that would have made a difference in match scoring. If you say something; your a bad guy, if you don't, your a bad guy.

Tisk Tisk..... Those that have and keep RO cards are the ones who make the calls - good, bad or indifferent. When you have the power to make sure the match is run and done fairly - Do it right. There are always the whining butt munches who fancy themselves the Johnny Cochran of the shooting world. Call if fair and move along. If someone wants to be a cheat they can usually figure some way to make it happen. I, for one, am not going to worry about them being cheats and liars and will continue on with my business....

[ima45dv8]

USPSA

P.O. Box 811

Sedro-Woolley, WA 98284

[Flexmoney]

The RO is watching the gun.... and calls the DQ. The assistant RO pulls the RO to the side and says the ND round hit the target?

Just to hammer this home some more...

Where the bullet goes isn't part of the call in this case. It's a fine and great if the shooter gets lucky and hits the target with their boo-boo...that means the round probably went in a good direction. But, it's still a DQ.

The shooter doesn't get a pass because they happened to catch cardboard.

[shootingchef]

I had an incident once where I ran up to a door, yanked it opened, and slip and fell on my butt. During the trip down to the ground, I already had the weak hand on the gun and a perfect sight picture on the target. I debated on whether to shoot on the way down to the ground since I wasn't doing anything at the time except waiting to hit the ground. Ended up not shooting. If I had fired a shot, would that warrant a DQ also?

If you are actively engaging targets, you can be upside down if it suits your fancy. There is nothing about feet on the ground!

This thread is reinforcing my desire to turn in my RO card. I have seen so many questionable calls, bad calls, even more calls not made that would have made a difference in match scoring. If you say something; your a bad guy, if you don't, your a bad guy.

Tisk Tisk..... Those that have and keep RO cards are the ones who make the calls - good, bad or indifferent. When you have the power to make sure the match is run and done fairly - Do it right. There are always the whining butt munches who fancy themselves the Johnny Cochran of the shooting world. Call if fair and move along. If someone wants to be a cheat they can usually figure some way to make it happen. I, for one, am not going to worry about them being cheats and liars and will continue on with my business....

easier said then done. We can wax on all day about integrity and fairness, but it's not happening.

[AlamoShooter]

With out Integrity and Fairness ...What the point in playing. Its the people that make it worth playing. >Its Not up to the RO's to keep it fair and safe. The shooter makes the shots good or bad Edited November 1, 2007 by AlamoShooter

[Flexmoney]

easier said then done. We can wax on all day about integrity and fairness, but it's not happening.

Well. It should be happening.

And, that is where leadership and communication come into play. We can shine a light on such things and get the word out on how things should be run. Then, instead of throwing the baby out with the bath water, we can strive to make things better.

[shootingchef]

easier said then done. We can wax on all day about integrity and fairness, but it's not happening.

Well. It should be happening.

And, that is where leadership and communication come into play. We can shine a light on such things and get the word out on how things should be run. Then, instead of throwing the baby out with the bath water, we can strive to make things better.

How do you do this w/o insulting and offending many people?

I RO'd a match recently where I would have and probably should have DQ'ed 10 people, all for moving with their finger on the trigger, this at a match with only 50 shooters, I would have been pulled off my own stage.

I see many references to Golf and how the players have to govern themselves, do the right thing, etc..but do you guys really think a shooter is going to DQ themselves over this? I bet it"s safe to say that we have all done it.

How about a poll, who has DQed themselves without the RO making the call? I know of only one person in two years who called himself for crossing his hand with the muzzle, and the RO did not even see it.

[mactiger]

easier said then done. We can wax on all day about integrity and fairness, but it's not happening.

Well. It should be happening.

And, that is where leadership and communication come into play. We can shine a light on such things and get the word out on how things should be run. Then, instead of throwing the baby out with the bath water, we can strive to make things better.

How do you do this w/o insulting and offending many people?

I RO'd a match recently where I would have and probably should have DQ'ed 10 people, all for moving with their finger on the trigger, this at a match with only 50 shooters, I would have been pulled off my own stage.

I see many references to Golf and how the players have to govern themselves, do the right thing, etc..but do you guys really think a shooter is going to DQ themselves over this? I bet it"s safe to say that we have all done it.

How about a poll, who has DQed themselves without the RO making the call? I know of only one person in two years who called himself for crossing his hand with the muzzle, and the RO did not even see it.

Flex is right. You do it politely but firmly, and don't be afraid to check the rule book if you have to. People's feelings sometimes have to take a back seat to safety, but there is no reason to be offensive while stopping and DQ'ing a competitor who has become unsafe. I'd be willing to bet that after the first person you DQ'd for finger on the trigger, the rest would have been paying attention. You don't do anyone a favor by not calling unsafe actions when you see them--it only makes the problem worse. Also, if there are that many people moving with their finger on the trigger, perhaps a little remedial safety instruction is in order. It never hurts to remind people of the rules, or instruct new shooters in our safety rules. Being a good range officer is much more than holding a timer on Sunday mornings--leadership, knowledge, and professionalism all play a part in it.

Troy

[boz1911]

easier said then done. We can wax on all day about integrity and fairness, but it's not happening.

Well. It should be happening.

And, that is where leadership and communication come into play. We can shine a light on such things and get the word out on how things should be run. Then, instead of throwing the baby out with the bath water, we can strive to make things better.

How do you do this w/o insulting and offending many people?

I RO'd a match recently where I would have and probably should have DQ'ed 10 people, all for moving with their finger on the trigger, this at a match with only 50 shooters, I would have been pulled off my own stage.

I see many references to Golf and how the players have to govern themselves, do the right thing, etc..but do you guys really think a shooter is going to DQ themselves over this? I bet it"s safe to say that we have all done it.

How about a poll, who has DQed themselves without the RO making the call? I know of only one person in two years who called himself for crossing his hand with the muzzle, and the RO did not even see it.

I for one have stopped myself for an AD. On a stage going down a tight hallway, indexed a target, decided to reseat the mag and bang. Since I'm a svelt 6-2, 300 lbs the RO could net see what happened and almost ran me over when I stopped, at which point he realized what I had done.

Fairness and integrity are key elements to this sport.

We've all seen questionable calls but well over 99% are correct, not many sports can say the same!

[Jasonub]

i fell once on an all steel match. and ad'd 3x. surprisingly 3 poppers fell so i shot the rest of the poppers on a prone position finishing 2nd on that stage

then i woke up....

[Flexmoney]

[edit...dang, I type slow...Troy and the gang got in before I could post]

Finger in the trigger guard is a tough one. Finger out is pretty easy to tell...finger in, not so much. I need to be 100% sure to make that call. I have been 99% sure quite often.

I was 99% sure at our last local match, and called the "FINGER" warning while the shooter was clearing a jam during the cof.

I take shooters aside after their runs and quietly make them aware that they were dancing all over the edge of getting a DQ for finger, 180's, etc. It is a chance to help them learn to do better. Most aren't aware they were doing anything that was even close. Some go into denial mode. I suggest being polite, but also being firm.

And, that goes for when they do cross the line and clearly have violated a DQ regulation. Polite. Firm. Explain.

What really offends people is when safety takes a back seat. The shooter that gets over on a DQ might be happy, but everybody...that has had a layer of safety removed from their shooting experience...isn't so happy. You don't want to lose the safe shooters.

If you have a fairly new club, or a bunch of newer competitors, then it might be a good idea to get with the Match Director and the rest of the RO's and experienced competitors and make a special effort to stress safety at the match.

[G-ManBart]

10.4.6 A shot which occurs during movement, except while actually shooting at targets.

The last two pistol matches I've attended I've seen multiple DQ'able offenses... as a bystander.

At a recent match there was a string of shooters who appeared to break the 180. The peanut gallery was saying "OOOOOO" and "uuuugggghhh". Collectively we knew that the shooters had broken the 180. ... and yet all we did was bitch and look on.

In another match a new shooter clearly broke the 180 while going to his left and reloading. The RO was behind him and couldn't see. The peanut gallery saw it and was again vocally ooooing and uuging. The RO was told of the offense but didn't issue the DQ because again he did not personally see it. The RO counseled the new shooter... but no DQ.

As a bystander I don't think you can really do anything. It's the RO's responsibility and sole authority to DQ the shooter.

Or am I wrong?

On the 180 rule and finger in the trigger I agree with you...nothing you can do as a bystander excpect maybe tell the RM/MD that you think the RO isn't calling repeated 180 violations (if it's happening over and over like you mention above).

If there is an AD and the RO doesn't DQ the shooter, the RM/MD should be notified because that's not really a judgement call. The RO can always argue that they didn't think it was a 180 violation, or that the shooter didn't quite have their finger in the trigger guard, but they can't argue an AD that happens when someone falls to the gound like the original poster mentioned. Safety is everyone's responsibility and if we see an unsafe trend, someone needs to know about it. R,

Bart

[JThompson]

Tonight I saw one guy moving with the finger on the trigger and two sweeps. There were a couple of more I wasn't sure about, but I saw three I'm 100% on. I think it's time to have a meeting on this issue. It's seems to be common place to warn a shooter when a DQ should have been issued. I don't want to see someone get shot before that changes. I know they are trying to teach people to be safe by warning them, but I'm not sure that this is enough gravity to get the point across. (practice match)

Two of the shooters were very new and we don't have a intro class for every new shooter. To get a range key for IPSC stuff you have to pass holster qualification... this gives the shooter the time he needs to learn s few things. It's not required to take this class to shoot USPSA matches, or practice matches, like tonight. I just don't think we should be giving people a warning even though it's a practice match. That practice bullet will kill you just as dead as a match one. I spoke to one of the other guys after the match and I told him I'm not letting anything slide anymore, practice or not. I'm going to speak to every shooter I feel needs it and tell them what I expect to see and what I don't and tell them that if I see anything I have warned them about I will DQ them.

If that makes me the club a_-hole so be it.

Edited November 2, 2007 by JThompson

[konkapot]

"Being a good range officer is much more than holding a timer on Sunday mornings....."

One of the wisest things ever said here. Should be on Page One of the RO handbook.

FY42385

[Greg Bell]

How about a poll, who has DQed themselves without the RO making the call? I know of only one person in two years who called himself for crossing his hand with the muzzle, and the RO did not even see it.

I have at an IDPA match. I let one loose way to soon coming out of the holster. I didn't realize that I didn't hit the target until after the COF was completed, the score keeper was back at the start position looking at the divot I left in the ground. The SO went for the match director because of the gravity of the situation and then they all started in with well where were you standing exactly? trying to make it greater than 6' away. I stopped the nonsense and said look it's clearly a DQ and I'm done for the day. The only thing I regret is that I left the range, I was too embarrased and pissed at myself to hang around.

[38superman]

Okay, check this out and tell me if the RO made the right call.

At a major match a few years back, I started a stage with gun holstered and hands on a prop.

On the start signal I dropped the prop and began to move toward the first target array while drawing the pistol.

Just as I got the gun up and my weak hand on it, I let one get away prematurely.

It was an accidental discharge, but was in the general direction of the targets.

The RO didn't stop me and I continued throught the stage.

At the end the assistant RO questioned the RO and the reply was:

"Yes that shot was not an aimed shot but he was engaging targets when it happened and the round landed more than 6 feet away from the shooters feet"

After reviewing the rules I believe it was the right call.

However, there are times when interpreting and enforcing the rules is not quite so straight forward as we would like.

Tony

[JThompson]

Okay, check this out and tell me if the RO made the right call.

At a major match a few years back, I started a stage with gun holstered and hands on a prop.

On the start signal I dropped the prop and began to move toward the first target array while drawing the pistol.

Just as I got the gun up and my weak hand on it, I let one get away prematurely.

It was an accidental discharge, but was in the general direction of the targets.

The RO didn't stop me and I continued throught the stage.

At the end the assistant RO questioned the RO and the reply was:

"Yes that shot was not an aimed shot but he was engaging targets when it happened and the round landed more than 6 feet away from the shooters feet"

After reviewing the rules I believe it was the right call.

However, there are times when interpreting and enforcing the rules is not quite so straight forward as we would like.

Tony

In this case I think I would have ruled it a DQ. It was unsafe gun handling pure and simple. I think any time a gun is discharged and it's not "intended" I don't mean in the general direction or even hitting a target. I did this once in practice with by buddy standing next to me. I wasn't done with the practice string and called an AD on myself unloaded the gun and holstered. I did want to keep practicing, but I wanted to make damn sure I knew how serious it was, so I called it out to my bud. I told him I was done for the day and policed up my brass and went home.

I'm glad I haven't had to do it in a match, but I damn sure would if I knew I had done something that was DQable. Not just for safety sake, but to help me lock it in that I really need to make damn sure I do everything I can to prevent that action from happening again.

Edited November 2, 2007 by JThompson

[Flexmoney]

Going off your words, you said you let one loose...which isn't "engaging targets".

As an RO, I'd need to be able to clearly determine that. I don't want to DQ somebody without being sure.

[38superman]

I think you could make an argument either way.

It didn't happen while moving between arrays.

I was approaching a target and taking aim.

I touched one off a split second before I meant to, due to sloppy trigger control.

The bullet went under the target and into the berm.

As an RO, I don't see how you could argue if the shooter said "it wan't an AD, it was a just a mike".

I know that it was an AD but how could the RO be sure?

This is exactly my point. There are times when the application of the rules is a bit of a grey area.

By the way, if it was a valid DQ offense, why the language in the rule book about a round stiking the ground at a specified distance from the shooter's feet?

Tls

Edited November 2, 2007 by 38superman

[JThompson]

I think you could make an argument either way.

The gun went off before I meant for it too .

As an RO, I don't see how you could argue if the shooter said it wan't an AD it was a miss.

I know that it was but how could he be sure?

This is exactly my point. There are times when the application of the rules is a bit of a grey area.

By the way, if it was a valid DQ offense, why the language in the rule book about a round stiking the ground at a specified distance from the shooter's feet?

Tls

I think you can make an argument either way... if I was sure I would have called it, but can you be sure in the instance you are talking about? I don't know, I wasn't there. I agree there are some grey areas and even more perception ones. And whether people want to admit it or not, it can exacerbated by shooter prominence.

The six foot rule is interesting in that it would seem to contradict the unsafe gun handling. After all, how can a bullet hit 7 feet from you and be any more safe than six? I would call them both unsafe, so why the rules on "Unsafe" I think it is more of a gap filler for anything the RO decides is unsafe, but doesn't fall under another ruling. I think in some ways the two rules conflict... your example is a perfect for this. It seems to say that there are dif kinds of ADs... after all, it is an AD we are talking about here, not matter how you look at it. I didn't mean to loose that round when I did. Maybe not a flagrant as a reload or moving AD, but an AD non the less. Then how can I have a 6 foot rules and still not have a DQ because of it. It should be an AD DQ or an unsafe gun handling DQ. IMHO ther six foot rules should be pulled and just have AD or Unsafe. The unsafe could cover everything not covered by other rules and it would remove the question it poses... at least in my mind.

Edited November 2, 2007 by JThompson

[racerba]

There's a slight difference between an A/N D (accidental/negligent discharge) and an P/E D (premature/early discharge). If you are coming to aim at a target and one goes off a little prematurely, I would not DQ you. If you trip and one goes off, it doesn't matter if it hit target or not, I will DQ you.

[John Heiter]

I'm not really sure how I'm supposed to rule on a shooter's "intent". So I DQ the guy who let's one go and it visibly shocks him when it happens, but what about the shooters who are more experienced and faster at recovering? There are going to be times when only the shooter knows if the shooter did or did not intend to fire a round.

I do wish this game was played with a little more integrity at all levels. Not sure how we get there, but I get tired of hearing shooter's laughing and almost bragging about how they clipped a no-shoot that the RO never noticed or they swept themselves but fortunately the RO was behind them where they couldn't see it, etc. The only thing you're "getting away with" is the loss of your own honor. Congrats to you on that.