M2 with Extended Tube and Pistol Grip... Legal?

[Religious Shooter]

I'm fairly familiar with my state's laws concerning shotguns. But I'm unfamiliar with the Fed laws. By Fed law is the following legal:

M2 (i.e. foreign made shotgun) shotgun with standard stock and 8+ shell tube.

M2 (i.e. foreign made shotgun) shotgun with pistol grip stock and 8+ shell tube.

I don't see any M2's (or any shotgun) with an extended tube (8+) in Benelli's website. I know Remington sells shotguns (except the 2nd config --- 1 less shell) in the above configurations. But can foreign guns be configured so?

I got all confused from talking to a LEO (a fellow 3 gunner) who claimed all of our shotguns were somehow illegal. I thought he was talking shjt so I didn't ask him for clarification.

[gunny]

You might try sinstrialrifleman (Russell) he is usually up to date on the Federal Laws.

[gose]

In general, any shotgun with a tube that takes more 5 rounds is deemed by ATF to be non-sporting and therefor non-importable.

Assembling a non-importable firearm with >= 11 foreign parts is illegal, according to ATF and 922®. Hence, putting an extended tube on a Benelli without replacing enough parts to get the number of foreign parts down to 10 or less, is a federal offense. If I remember correctly, the M2 has 13 foreign made parts, so 3 of them would have to be replaced.

However, ATF also says that the non-sporting criteria is evaluated on a case-by-case basis, so basically they can say that a pistol gripped shotgun that takes 10 rounds is sporting, while a normal stock equipped shotgun that takes 5 rounds is non-sporting. In the Benelli case there are several ATF letters floating around that specifically say that it's illegal to put an extended tube on it without playing the 922® game.

Crystal clear, isn't it?

[Chris]

As it stands, my new M2 came from the 'gunsmith' with a Nordic tube and bolt handle plus an after market front sight. I guess if you want to get technical, the tube is actually 2 parts (tube and nut) so the nut would be replaced along with the handle, which is only 2 parts.

Now it also has a lightened bolt and a modified carrier both of which were done in the US. Are those considered "non-foreign" parts??

If not, how is a smith/dealer getting away with selling this to me?

[TRUBL]

Nordic makes extended mag tubes for M2's???? noooo, that extention is made to carry your lunch.....by the way, it is 3 pieces (4 if you include the spring)

[Merlin Orr]

Scary stuff. Close the thread and make it all go away.

[StealthyBlagga]

The directly applicable statute is 922r :

"TITLE 18, PART I, CHAPTER 44, § 922r

"It shall be unlawful for any person to assemble from imported parts any semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun which is identical to any rifle or shotgun prohibited from importation under section 925 (d)(3) of this chapter as not being particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes

...

27 CFR section 178.39

(a) No person shall assemble a semiautomatic rifle, or any shotgun, using more than 10 of the imported parts listed in paragraph c of this section if the assembled firearm is prohibited from importation under section 925(d)(3) as not being particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes.

( The provisions of this section shall not apply to:

...

(3) The repair of any rifle or shotgun which had been imported into or assembled in the United States prior to

November 30, 1990, or the replacement of any part of such firearm.

( C ) For purposes of this section, the term imported parts are:

(1) Frames, receivers, receiver castings, forgings or stampings

(2) Barrels

(3) Barrel extensions

(4) Mounting blocks (trunnions)

(5) Muzzle attachments

(6) Bolts

(7) Bolt carriers

(8) Operating rods

(9) Gas pistons

(10) Trigger housings

(11) Triggers

(12) Hammers

(13) Sears

(14) Disconnectors

(15) Buttstocks

(16) Pistol grips

(17) Forearm handguards

(18) Magazine bodies

(19) Followers

(20) Floorplates"

Now, the referenced section 18 U.S.C. 925 gives the BATFE the duty to regulate what is or is not "sporting". In 1989 the BATF (as it was then) wrote new regulations declaring that the presence of certain features on a long gun (such as a folding stock or pistol grip) make the gun unsuitable for sporting purposes. My understanding is that, for semi-auto shotguns, the COMBINATION of a pistol grip stock AND a mag over 5 shots is deemed "unsporting", and thus unimportable under current BATFE rules... this is why the Benelli M4 has that abortion of a mag tube.

Now, there is a way around this, as has been used by the AK crowd for years - you install enough US compliance parts to get below the 10-part limit. On the list above, I have marked in yellow all the foreign parts that I believe are applicable to the Benelli M1/M2 design. If enough can be substituted for US-made parts, then you would presumably be good to go.

Per the text above, guns imported before November 1990 are grandfathered, and thus not subject this regulation - this is why you still see some HK/Benelli M1 shotguns with PG and long mag tube.

Edited September 27, 2007 by StealthyBlagga

[mike.45]

This is a good question and one I have always pondered over when considering bringing my guage over to the US for a match - the law is very vague and confusing over this issue , but I know Kurt and Trapr have travelled out of the US and back into the US with guns that seem to contravene the regs with no trouble.

If you guys are holding the Pan American shotgun champs in a few years I guess all us foreigners trying to bring in non US made shotguns with ext mags and pistol grips will test what the law is saying exactly !!

[gose]

AFAIK, this should be the list for the M1/M2, add the gas piston for the M4:

Receiver

Barrel

Bolt

Bolt Carrier

Trigger housing

Trigger

Hammer

Disconnector

Buttstock

Forearm

Magazine Body(s)

Follower

Of the things listed above I know of at least three (follower, tube, forearm) parts that are made here.

So by changing the tube (the full tube, not just the extension) and follower, you should be ok, since that would give you your 10 foreign parts.

Edited September 27, 2007 by gose

[Religious Shooter]

Sear?

That would mean you need three parts?

I would change the buttstock to a modified Speedfeed for an M1 and the tube and follower. If I could find an American made forearm I'd change that too.

Edited September 27, 2007 by Religious Shooter

[kurtm]

No pistol grip Mike...that is what makes the difference for Trapr and I. There you go tring to contravene U.S. law by bringing that "horrid" U.S. made Speed Feed pistol grip stock into the U.S. BTW I got so much U.S. made stuff on mine it might as wel have been made in Detroit!

[gose]

Sear?

That would mean you need three parts?

I would change the buttstock to a modified Speedfeed for an M1 and the tube and follower. If I could find an American made forearm I'd change that too.

There's an ATF letter in this thread http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=6&...=1&t=227165 saying that the M1/M2 has 13 parts, but they count buttstock and pistolgrip as two parts. With a normal stock you would have 12 parts, so replacing tube + follower should get you down to the needed 10.

However, ATF might change their interpretation at any time, so if you want to be sure, the only way to go is to write a letter to ATF.

[bpowe]

Russell can explain this better, but it is my understanding that if a gunsmith mills the frame of a firearm, or drills a hole in it, he has manufactured a new firearm. This means he needs a manufacturers license. It also means that a foreign made firearm is now an american made firearm and not subject to 922R.

Bill

[jobob]

This all gives me a headache! I think I'll stick with my Remingtons!

[Carlos]

Modification of a foreign made part will NOT turn it into a "US MADE" part. Once foreign, always foreign.

I suspect that many of the guns used in our sport & 3gunning in general are unlawful & the owners have, knowingly or otherwise, committed felonies in assembling their guns in their current configuration. However, Merlin Orr hit the nail on the head: lock this thread and make it go away.

[jbullgpd]

The last thing we need is the ATF showing up at all the 3 gun matches and doing inspections!!!!!!!!!!

[Religious Shooter]

You guys are kidding right? Change out three parts and your legal. What's so hard about that?

Or buy Remington or Winchester.

[jobob]

You guys are kidding right? Change out three parts and your legal. What's so hard about that?

Or buy Remington or Winchester.

I don't think anyone is kidding, unfortunately. And, your Winchester may be imported. But, if the gun doesn't have a pistol grip (a big hangy-down pistol grip ala AK or AR, not the little curved one that's part of the stock), then I don't think this rule applies. Not sure, though. Amazing how some DC bureaucrats can write a rule (not a law written by Congress) that makes a person a felon for minding his own business!

[Carlos]

You guys are kidding right? Change out three parts and your legal. What's so hard about that?

Or buy Remington or Winchester.

I don't think anyone is kidding, unfortunately. And, your Winchester may be imported. But, if the gun doesn't have a pistol grip (a big hangy-down pistol grip ala AK or AR, not the little curved one that's part of the stock), then I don't think this rule applies. Not sure, though. Amazing how some DC bureaucrats can write a rule (not a law written by Congress) that makes a person a felon for minding his own business!

Yes - except all the Russian AK shotguns are US made. Read that again: those are AMERICAN MADE SHOTGUNS.

How so? The AK fans & the commercial builders figured this stuff out years ago and they follow the US parts content rules (google Tromix if you want). No one in their right mind would put a pistol grip conversion on an AK shotgun without using a majority of US made parts including US made buttstock & grip (counts as 2 parts) gas piston (US made 1 part) and US made G-2 brand trigger parts (counts as 3 US parts). IE- majority US made parts, so its an American made AK-47 shotgun.

I do not make up the rules - the batfe does - I just follow their interpetation. I sure as heck would not have posted about my Saiga 20 AK conversion here on BE.com if I was not damn sure its 100% legal & I have the parts receipts to prove it. I hope you guys with limited Benellis held on to your original non-pistol grip stocks. But again - we don't need spot inspections at matches - Merlin Orr was right. Best thing to do would be to lock this thread & make it go away.

[StealthyBlagga]

ANOTHER OPTION: If you don't want to replace any of the original Benelli parts with US parts, then you can register the shotgun as a Short Barrel Shotgun (SBS). This is a category of NFA weapon (like a machinegun) that requires submission of an ATF Form 1 and payment of a $200 making tax. Once the paperwork is approved by the ATF, you can shorten the barrel below 18" and/or the overall length below 26" (or maybe not - I don't know if its compulsory to shorten the gun). The reason you would do this is that NFA weapons are considered "non sporting" and thus are exempt from 922r compliance. By filing the Form 1, you are effectively making the whole gun "US made". Depending on the cost of US compliance parts, this might even be cheaper than the traditional 922r compliance route! The down side is that the gun would go on the NFA registry, with all the restrictions that go with this (sale/transfer only through Class III dealers, need to file forms with the ATF to take the gun out of your home state, etc.). Not a very appealing solution, but a legal option to consider.

[Chris]

I dont have a pistol grip. So I'm good?

[Religious Shooter]

If you have enough Domestic parts you are. I strongly believe that the ATF letter mentioned above erred and didn't include the sear as a part.

I say you need three domestic parts to be legal wether you have pistol or standard stock --- 922r doesn't matter if you have a pistol grip or not. What matters is if you have at least three of the listed parts are made in the US. Look at Benelli's website. They don't offer extended tubed benellis with a standard stock either. BTW if you take off the extended tube you are legal.

The only listed parts that I can surmise that is made domestically and is widely made is the: extended tube with the nut (DMW, Sure Cycle, Nordic), follower (Brownells) and the stock (Speedfeed - modified from an m1). Change out those three parts and you are legal. American made sights, bolt handles, bolt releases, etc. don't count as they are not listed in the text of 922r.

It would be nice if domestically made handguards, sears, hammers and triggers were available (hint, hint, to manufacturers). IMHO the handguard on the M2 is kind of lame to begin with. If you don't want to get rid of the M2 gel stock get some bondo and a dremel tool and I wouldn't be surprised if you could adapt a Remington or a domestically made M1 handguard for use with the M2.

[chuckbradley]

Practically speaking if ATF were to show up and do inspections how would they be able to determine what parts were foreign and which are domestic? Kind of hard to prove one way or the other.

[Neil Smith]

Ok so what's the score with foreign visitors bringing foreign guns into the US for a short time to shoot a match ? Do these rules only apply to guns remaining in the US on a permanant basis ?

N

[Bryan 45]

I got involved in a discussion on this on AR15.com. Some guys claimed they sold their Benellis because they were afraid of the boogy man.

I see 922 kind of like public intoxication. You can drink all you want at a bar, as long as you stay civil no one cares. But start a fight, and the cops are going to ticket you for anything possible.

As long as you don't go blazin' into the quickie-mart w/ your Benelli, ATF could care less.

If you're worried about it, take an electric pencil and engrave USA on some of the internals. Like Chuck says, how they going to prove which parts are foreign or domestic?

Of course, the other option is to take your mag extension off you Benelli, they maybe I won't finish in the bottom of the scores w/ my old pre '89 M1!

Edited September 30, 2007 by Bryan 45