Religious Shooter Posted October 2, 2007 Share Posted October 2, 2007 Overall length is much easier to measure, just make a ruling on what the overall length should be and leave it. If it needs to be 3.5" then make it that. It seems to me 3" is pretty good just the way it is. Its interpretation that clouds the waters.Trapr That's sounds good too. All I want is a stock SA M1A's compensator to be absolutely legal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry White Posted October 2, 2007 Share Posted October 2, 2007 I always thought 1in.X 3inches was pretty clear cut. That is what the rule book says and thats what it outta be. Threads, barrel length and the phase of the moon is just smoke and b.s.--------------Larry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Religious Shooter Posted October 2, 2007 Share Posted October 2, 2007 That would make the stock SA full length M1A compensator not legal... by a long shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted October 2, 2007 Share Posted October 2, 2007 RS i believe the stock SA thing on the end of the barrel of the original M1A , is technically a flash hider and was never intended to be a compensator. Now on the Scout rifle i thought that met the current 1 x 3 inch requirements. Trapr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Religious Shooter Posted October 2, 2007 Share Posted October 2, 2007 I'm talking about the brake that comes with every CA compliant fullsized M1A and probably the Scout Squad. http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/Pro...KE%2fSTABILIZER The description says it is 4.25" long. From the edge of the front sight base to the end it is just a tad over 3+ inches. This brake came with my M1A. And it looks like it comes with all Scout Squads as well. If you define " 3" " as the OAL of the compensator including the threads and/or attachment area you would make the current SA Scout Squad and the fullsized CA M1A illegal for both Tactical and HM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiggerJJ Posted October 2, 2007 Share Posted October 2, 2007 (edited) I did not know about the comps that are over 3" overall, nor did I know about any rulings that allow for threading... guess I've had my head in the sand assuming that all mfgs built them to adhere to the 1"x3" rule... personally, I think that comps, breaks, whatever you want to call them, on tactical/limited rifles should be against the rules anyway (flash hiders ok), further seperating tac/lim rifles from open... but that is another story... And not to have written into the rules the rulings made in years past needs to be fixed, in USPSA and IMGA. Guess I need to do some research. I am inclined to agree with BBD and leave it the way it is, measuring overall length & width like it was originally intended. RS, the Brownells part you link to says it is a replacement for the original flash hider, so I am confused... thanks for starting this can o worms, Patrick! jj Edited October 2, 2007 by RiggerJJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted October 3, 2007 Share Posted October 3, 2007 J.J. Since you guys seem to want to do away with limited anyway, make limited a NO MUZZEL DEVICE of any kind class, make Tac Optic class "comp free" after all it is your match, and you can make the call just like the No Beta C mag thing! The comp Relig is talking about is NOT a replacement in California it is MANDATORY BY LAW!! so while you are at it make it a Californian free match also I just don't get the "seperation" between rifles thing that alot of you seem to be fixated with. We in the U.S. don't shoot rifle only matches very much at all, and overseas, where I have shot a few "rifle only" matches, IPSC doesn't seem to mind that a limited rifle has a comp...or an 80 bazillion round magazine, so why in a country that doesn't even do these types of matches do we care??? As for 3-gun/multi-gun open division is like a comped pistol that can hold 29 rounds a shotgun that can use speed loaders and hold as much as we wish in IMGA and a rifle that can Multipule optics AND a bipod. I like to look at the whole enchalada, and it seems like quite a few differences to me, but what do I know. I do know Limited is about aiming. Tactical is about "old eyes that can't aim anymore. Open is about all kinds of aides to aiming and lots o shells. If I can see the difference why can't others? KurtM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Religious Shooter Posted October 3, 2007 Share Posted October 3, 2007 RS, the Brownells part you link to says it is a replacement for the original flash hider, so I am confused... It would be a replacement for M1A's that come from the factory with a flashhider. But several rifles from SA have this brake as a standard and/or mandatory part. If you take a look at the Scout Squads in SA's website they have this brake as a standard part. As far as I can tell the Squads don't come with a flash hider. And as KurtM mentioned this brake is also a mandatory/standard part for all the full-sized and Squad M1A's that are to be sold in Kalifornia. The SOCOM and it's twins being the exception to this --- they have a different brake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiggerJJ Posted October 3, 2007 Share Posted October 3, 2007 (edited) As I said above, the comp on a lim/tac rifle thing is another story, and just my personal opinion. I'm just addressing the issue about +3 inch long comps/breaks in lim/tac and streaching of the rules. And for the record, we intend to offer limited/tac irons at RM3G as a totally separate class next year, as well as separating HeMan optics and irons. We have no intention of doing away with irons, rather, we want to improve the number of entries and feel offering irons as separate classes may help that. If it does away with itself by having too few or no entries, so be it. sorry for the thread drift... jj Edited October 3, 2007 by RiggerJJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted October 3, 2007 Share Posted October 3, 2007 HEY ROOMY I was just F*&%in with you! No harm ment! I thought the no Califaornian thing would have made you smile...see you in T town! KURTM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bear1142 Posted October 3, 2007 Share Posted October 3, 2007 Threads, barrel length and the phase of the moon is just smoke and b.s.-------------- Sorry, but it's not. Back in 04 we went right to the source (Amidon) and asked him for a ruling as a legitimate question popped up, how are the comps measured? Stand alone or attached on the barrel. He responded in writing that measurement was from the end of the muzzle to the end of the comp with the comp attached. The only real issue here is the fact that Amidon did not put the ruling on the NROI website. I don't know what more you want guys want, Amidon interprets the rules and this was his ruling. If you don't like how the rule was interpreted, call your Area Director and make your voice heard. I wish I had saved my response, but after the 04 Nationals, I assumed it would be published in the (then new) rifle rulebook supplemental, but it was not. Erik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted October 3, 2007 Share Posted October 3, 2007 Bear, if that is his exact wording i'm curious how you interpreted it to mean threads not included................because I read it to be exterior overall length. But like I said earlier, its ALL open to interpretation. Trapr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benny hill Posted October 3, 2007 Share Posted October 3, 2007 Bear, can you come up with the written rule by him? I would like to see it so I can make mine 3 1/2 inches long also. I can make it work better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRUBL Posted October 3, 2007 Share Posted October 3, 2007 (edited) I sent an email to the NROI website, maybe they can get a hold of john and if he has time, look in to this and possibly make a rulling in writting on either this forum or the NROI forum. Tim Edited October 3, 2007 by TRUBL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bear1142 Posted October 3, 2007 Share Posted October 3, 2007 Trap, I don't know how you'd interpret his ruling any other way. The comp recesses over the threaded part of the barrel, usually by about 1/2". Since the measurement is from the end of the muzzle, not the comp, the overall length of the comp is reduced by 1/2" (when attached) or you'd get a stand alone measurement maximum of 3.5" (which reduces down to 3.0 when the 1/2" of threads is taken into consideration.) Benny, I wish I did. Considering Amidon's less than stellar record when it comes to consistant rule interpretations, it wouldn't surprise me if he did a complete 180 on how the comps are measured and with no record (other than the recollections of several shooters who saw and read the email), there would be no way to challenge him on his memory. Hopefully, he'll remember. Erik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRUBL Posted October 3, 2007 Share Posted October 3, 2007 Another person to ask maybe....atleast for the upcoming match, as he will be the MD.....is Troy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgary Posted October 3, 2007 Share Posted October 3, 2007 Since the measurement is from the end of the muzzle, not the comp, Just my less-than-two cents, but... I always thought "overall length" meant... well, overall length. Like, if you had one laying on your bench, and you stuck a tape measure on it, how long is it? If "effective length" had been meant, my guess is that the rule would have said "effective length", and would have provided a guideline about how to measure it. I'll check with John Amidon to get some clarity... (at least for the USPSA rules. Hi, Kurt! ) Bruce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted October 3, 2007 Share Posted October 3, 2007 Erik, I understood the "muzzle" to be the extreme end of the barrel with comp attached,( I guess you could also call it the end of the comp), and then measure back to the other end where the threads are. In other words, once you put the comp on the barrel, you have moved the muzzle to the end of the comp. He did say muzzle and not crown. Just my interpretation Trapr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bear1142 Posted October 3, 2007 Share Posted October 3, 2007 I always thought "overall length" meant... well, overall length. Like, if you had one laying on your bench, and you stuck a tape measure on it, how long is it? Bruce, The problem back in 04 was that there were still a lot of rifles with permanently attached compensators due to 94 AW ban. There was no way to take them off to measure. There were also some barrels with integral compensators where there was no definite point to measure from as the barrel and comp were all one unit. The question became, where do you measure from on a perm. attached comp? Do you start at the end of the comp and go backwards or go from the crown of the muzzle and go forward to the end of the comp? Due to all these questions and issues with the inability to just lay the comp on a table and measure, Amidon stated the measurement would be taken with the compensator attached and measured from the crown of the muzzle inside the compensator to the end of the compensator. Trapper, Sorry, I mingled words. I was using crown and muzzle interchangeably. Erik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mig Posted October 3, 2007 Share Posted October 3, 2007 Due to all these questions and issues with the inability to just lay the comp on a table and measure, Amidon stated the measurement would be taken with the compensator attached and measured from the crown of the muzzle inside the compensator to the end of the compensator. Erik is correct on this issue and it does makes sense. This was also conveyed to a comp manufacture who inquired about the measurements as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Religious Shooter Posted October 4, 2007 Share Posted October 4, 2007 (edited) If it's going to be (re)defined... the measurement used should be: the distance from the rear baffle of the first port (wether this port is on the barrel or on a separate compensator) to the front baffle of the last port (towards the new muzzle). This area is truly where the unique added benefit of a compensator will be. In addition you won't have to take the comp off to get a measurement. This methodology can also be used for ported barrels. Take a look at the hybridcomp for pistol where the barrel is ported and at the end is a comp. Where would the comp be on this type of set-up? The current rules (IMGA type) don't address ported rifle barrels. Only the dimensions of the comp. I mean what's stopping a guy from porting a barrel and then sticking a compensator on? Sure varying the OAL of the comp will increase the weight of the comp. Increased weight => less recoil. But added weight isn't a unique feature in a comp's performance enhancement as you can get this benefits via other means --- you can add weight by using a thicker barrel, a longer barrel, buttstock weights, etc. Given this, having a comp with a longer OAL (with a fixed area for port location) doesn't really add any advantage. The measurement used should be for length of the area where the ports are located. Not the actual OAL of the comp. (Which doesn't take into account barrel porting and the fact that other platforms need a longer attachment area. And this method also makes illegal the SJC, M1A comps and others(?) if 3" is used.) Not the added length that the comp adds to the OAL of the rifle. (Where you have to take off the comp to determine the measurement. How will you determine this if the comp is blind pinned, silver soldered or welded on?) Also the attachment area (rear of comp to front of the barrel's muzzle) for an M1A is over 1+ inches long. I'm sure other non-AR15 guns out there have an attachment area that is greater than the 1/2" found on a typical AR15. Let's not use 1/2" in helping to determine the length of a comp as you are penalizing non-AR15 guns. ...purty please. Edited October 4, 2007 by Religious Shooter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westerman Posted October 4, 2007 Share Posted October 4, 2007 (edited) Just emailed to me from John Amidon "The 3.00" measured on a compensator, is measured from the end of the muzzle to the end of the comp with the comp attached. I do not see this changing for the 2008 rifle rules, so I will add it to my NROI rulings so everyone has the same verbiage." John Amidon Director NROI Edited October 4, 2007 by Westerman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Religious Shooter Posted October 4, 2007 Share Posted October 4, 2007 (edited) I wonder how are they going to enforce that? One of my uppers has a blind pinned comp. Are they going to put my upper in a vice and tear the comp off? M1A's have the FSB on the comp. Are they gonna have the special pliers to unscrew the comp along with the appropiriate allen screw? Then will they reinstall it? And then of course the rifle has to be rezeroed. I was screwing around and switching comps back and forth on an upper one day. The original comp was loctited on there good so I had to give it some muscle. When I got time to shoot it at a 100 yards with the original comp I found that my zero had shifted. I think everytime you screw off and on a comp on a rifle you have the potential of loosing your zero. I think verifying for compliance has the potential to be destructive. Edited October 4, 2007 by Religious Shooter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpeltier Posted October 4, 2007 Share Posted October 4, 2007 I wonder how are they going to enforce that? Who cares. The legal comps work so good I cant see any advantage if one is a wisker oversize anyhow, I think were splitting hairs here ( Its the man not the machine, right?). But we do need clear rules to stay consistant. If someone shows up with a comp the size of a coke can well, someone will say something. No need to verify for compliance IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1911user Posted October 4, 2007 Share Posted October 4, 2007 This is easy to verify with the comp installed. Use a piece of metal rod (or hardwood dowel) slightly larger than the rifle caliber. Slip it into the front of the comp and see how far it will enter before hitting the muzzle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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